The great resignation and employee burnout

Speaker 1

Welcome back to another episode of Zebo Talks. Today we are joined by Dr. Steve Fannum, character psychologist of the Psychological Society of Ireland. Today we will look at the great result employee burnout and the abroad employers have.

Speaker 1

Thank you for joining us today, Steve.

Speaker 2

Thank you for having me, Michelle.

Speaker 1

And Steve, can you start it off by telling us a little bit about your own background?

Speaker 2

Sure, as you mentioned, I’m a Chartered Psychologist of the Psychological Society of Ireland, and I’m a Wellbeing Specialist at Zevo Health. For the past half decade or so, I was a lecturer at Manouth University and Dublin City University.

Speaker 2

I set up my own private practice and have seen an increase in cases where people are seeking support for stress and anxiety, both work-related and non-work-related. And just before recording today, I was reflecting on my own experience, having worked part-time during my PhD and on how I would have benefited myself from an employee Wellbeing program way back then.

Speaker 1

Mental health and burnout have been on the rise in the workplace for years, although no more than in the last two years during the pandemic. It is now reported that 55% of workplace absenteeism is caused by mental health.

Speaker 1

This alongside presenteeism, which is the whole new issue, which is attendance and work when an individual is not necessarily well.

Speaker 2

Even before the pandemic struck Michelle, a Health and Wellbeing at Work survey report by the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development in the UK noted that over 80% of respondents had witnessed presenteeism in their organisation.

Speaker 2

Closer to home here in Ireland, there were newspaper articles beginning to flag these issues. But like you said, they have become particularly prominent over the course of the past two years. Absenteeism is when an employee is not in work for a period of time longer than what is considered to be reasonable.

Speaker 2

The presence of a mental health difficulty doesn’t automatically result in absence from work, but depression is one of the more common conditions reported when this happens. Presenteeism is the opposite to absenteeism, but there are different definitions depending on sources.

Speaker 2

Management researcher Gary Johns has defined presenteeism as when an employee attends work while ill. The illness impairs their productivity and ability to function effectively in the workplace. Studies have identified employees attending work with migraines, allergies, cardiovascular issues, and chronic illness.

Speaker 2

Research has also examined presenteeism in the context of mental health, including depression and anxiety specifically. Presenteeism is associated with stricter workplace absence policies and situations where an employee feels insecure about keeping their job or where their position with the company may be in jeopardy.

Speaker 2

Sometimes understaffing can be a factor. It has been found that supervisors are more likely to go into work sick than junior employees. Some would feel that it’s less stressful to go into work at less than 100% of their health rather than deal with additional stress that can accompany taking a full day off.

Speaker 2

Over the past 20 years, studies have perhaps surprisingly found that presenteeism results in greater loss of profit and productivity than absenteeism. So it’s obviously very important to encourage healthy work practices to avoid both presenteeism and absenteeism.

Speaker 1

With this in mind, and as you’ve said, their burnout is higher than ever, what would you describe burnout as and what exactly is?

Speaker 2

Well, the American Psychological Association described burnout as a state of emotional, mental, or physical exhaustion that is caused by extended exposure or heated exposure to stress. So usually when we speak of burnout, we talk about it within the context of work, but it can also show up in other domains of life, like parenting, caring, or even romantic relationships.

Speaker 2

When somebody is experiencing burnout, they can be cynical, depressed, or lethargic. People who are burnt out can also feel irritable or sometimes lack compassion if they’re in a caring profession. They may feel incapable of doing their job effectively.

Speaker 2

It could be thought of as similar to stress, but more specifically, it’s an extended period of stress where a person feels that there isn’t an end to the stress in the near future. And people working in high stress environments are more likely to experience burnout than those in lower stress work environments.

Speaker 2

It’s always been something that psychologists have faced and had to tackle on their own behalf and on behalf of others. So there isn’t anything new about burnout, but with the changes in workplace arrangements and practices, in some cases, there have been additional burdens and challenges to face.

Speaker 1

really interesting because the next thing I was about to say was basically about how studies have shown that people are actually now more stressed than they were during the previous recession, which it was a time when people were losing their homes.

Speaker 1

And let’s face it, that’s pretty bad. And so it’s interesting that kind of the prolonged burnout is actually putting people under more stress. So as a list, the shift in lifestyle is massive and has led to the Great Resign.

Speaker 1

Do you think it’d be too simple to look at the Great Resign just simply because we were in the aftermath of a pandemic? Or do you think it’s more people are moving jobs after kind of staying still for two years or the time of uncertainty?

Speaker 2

Very interesting, and I’ll get to that in a moment. And first I’ll address just what you mentioned about mental health and stress. The struggle with mental health and stress is something that the PSI, the Psychological Society of Ireland, were raising from the very beginning of the pandemic and the restrictions.

Speaker 2

Like almost overnight, they published documents helping parents and children and themselves adjusted this new situation back in March of 2020. Some people feel they adjusted quite well, others don’t.

Speaker 2

The same could be said for re-entering society now with the changes we’ve seen this week. In my own experience, I have definitely seen an increase in numbers seeking support for mental health concerns.

Speaker 2

In fact, I have one former colleague who runs her own clinic in the Midlands, and she has a two-year waiting list and it’s growing. And that’s just one example. It’s staggering, it really is. And that’s still anecdotal, but aside from that, we are seeing the data come in.

Speaker 2

And the data are quite clear. The pandemic led to almost a 28% increase in cases of major depressive disorders and just over a quarter in cases of anxiety disorders, that’s globally. And then here in Ireland, we are seeing higher rates of mental health problems too, such as depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress and loneliness.

Speaker 2

Research conducted by Manuthi University also observed these issues and noted that they’re affecting men and women in Ireland differently since the pandemic first hit. It was found that women have experienced higher levels of depression and anxiety and men are presenting with higher rates of post-traumatic stress.

Speaker 2

Both men and women have experienced a lot more loneliness as well. So in my own experience, at least, some of those reaching out for support now would probably not have done so during the recession. I don’t have any peer-reviewed information to say why, but I have my own feelings or opinion on it.

Speaker 2

I feel, in general, there is a reduction in stigma surrounding support for mental health in Ireland now anyway, but for a considerable amount of people, for a variety of reasons, the stigma remains. Ireland has had recessions before that were relatively recent, but the COVID-19 situation presented different challenges that we didn’t face before.

Speaker 2

Therefore, we didn’t have experience of managing the practicalities of a pandemic or our feelings during a pandemic or the associated mental health implications. And then to the next point, you mentioned, Michelle, about the great resignation.

Speaker 2

I suppose a good point to understanding this and the psychology behind this would be to examine the work of the person who coined the term and predicted it, Professor Anthony Klotz at Texas A&M University.

Speaker 2

He noticed certain trends that led to his prediction of this situation that we see. So firstly, it was felt that there were large numbers of people who wanted to leave their current job, but didn’t due to the uncertainty of the pandemic.

Speaker 2

Those people remained in their job longer than they would have without the pandemic. And according to Klotz, once vaccines were available and economies started to improve, people felt the time was right or safe to leave their job.

Speaker 2

And burnout is another issue that he did identify and it comes up quite a lot, obviously, but high levels of burnout were identified in areas like healthcare, retail and hospitality. Because burnout predicts leaving a job when there are high levels of burnout, it’s likely that there will be high levels of people leaving their jobs also.

Speaker 2

And Klotz predicted that again, once the pandemic is more in the rear view mirror, people would like to recharge their batteries or work in another role that isn’t quite as taxing. Many employees have enjoyed working from home or within a hybrid model.

Speaker 2

And he also stated that employees, many will be willing to return to the office, but there will be those who will decide to only work from home and would rather leave their job than return to the office.

Speaker 2

So that comes into it too. And then throughout the entire pandemic, there was such a focus on health and death and statistics. People were provided with a chance to take a step back and reflect on their lives and what was really important to them.

Speaker 2

So people examined their values and their life directions rather than just their bank account. And Klotz had stated that he isn’t sure if this phenomenon is happening just because of those reasons or to what extent, but it is a reasonable explanation for what’s behind it.

Speaker 2

And more than anything in terms of psychology, the pandemic provides or provided a great opportunity for an employee to ask, is this the type of life I want to live? It’s a simple question, but an important one.

Speaker 2

So some refer to it as the great prioritization. And that fits into an area quite close to my heart and my work that I feel is very beneficial for the workplace and for personal interventions called acceptance and commitment therapy.

Speaker 2

But we’ll speak about that a little later on, I’m sure.

Speaker 1

They are brilliant points. There’s so many things I’d love to compare up there. The one thing I thought was like really, really sort of what’s your colleague with the two in your waiting list? That’s phenomenal.

Speaker 1

Like even the fact, it shows so many things. It shows that the need there, but it also shows the shift in our society and the shift in like seeing around mental health, which is brilliant in itself.

Speaker 2

it is. And it’s great to see so many celebrities in Ireland being open about their struggles because that is what’s normal. It’s not normal all the time. It really isn’t. It’s to be flexible. But the more we can get that conversation out there, the better.

Speaker 1

Yeah, even the fact that people are like, discussing the actual seeking help rather than just, I don’t know, you see some people on Instagram and on social media and they just pop up some sort of be happy quote and if that’s kind of toxic positivity that like, you have to be happy.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we’re gonna be happy. We’re gonna make you happy. You know, maybe get there eventually it doesn’t have to be the straight way. The journey people go through as opposed to, you’re going to be happy today.

Speaker 2

It’s funny, and it’s convincing, and we’re kind of taught that from an early stage, but a lot of people in that situation before leaving would have done some soul searching, and it’s the value that’s most important in terms of psychology and living a life in that direction because we can reduce our suffering by making room for discomfort and continuing to do what’s important for us.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it’s a very interesting area. I’m reading a book at the moment and I’m not sure you’ve heard of it. Solve for Happy by Mo Goddard. I’m never sure I’m saying his name but I like the book. But it’s just that sort of thing of like the kind of reframing your mind and that sort of thing.

Speaker 1

Which is very good and it’s great to see people kind of taking those steps at the moment rather than just leaving the job, hoping to be better on the other side but not fix it in turn or to you by the thing first.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

It is. It’s encouraging and it’s probably encouraging for the economy if people feel confident enough to leave a job. Sometimes they don’t have one lined up. They’re confident that they can make it work.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it’s very true. When it kind of goes back as well, what you said to the kind of shift in how our brains work, it’s not just about the bank account looking fantastic, not just how the bank account, it does come back to how you’re feeling currently, which is brilliant.

Speaker 1

You have to say happiness should go above what the bottom line says.

Speaker 2

It’s true. Money doesn’t really bring happiness unless someone doesn’t have much of us to begin with. I’d like to give it a go and see, but I think you’re psychologically just to be flexible.

Speaker 1

Yeah, definitely. I couldn’t agree more.

Speaker 3

Here at SEVO Health we have designed the Mental Health Champion Training Program to support employees’ mental health both inside and outside the workplace. Mental health is now recognised as a significant contribution to long-term absenteeism.

Speaker 3

Our mental health training programs are designed to provide individuals with the tools to recognise mental health in the workplace and support those in crisis. We are wholeheartedly committed to improving an organisation’s mental health and wellbeing and as such we understand the key processes required for this change to come to fruition.

Speaker 3

Our team of wellbeing specialists provide attendees with the necessary tools needed to engage in open conversations about mental health in the workplace. Our Mental Health Champion Training can be provided across all levels of an organisation with the view that any individual feels equipped to support their peers or colleagues in mental health distress or crisis.

Speaker 3

Contact us today to inquire about Mental Health Champion Training for your organisation www.sevohealth.com

Speaker 1

So, as you said there about how people are kind of shifting and moving, that sort of thing, over the years, what would have passed as employee value being has changed. People aren’t happy with the free yoga class and it no longer needs people’s expectations.

Speaker 1

In your opinion, what do you think employers can do to attempt to retain employees during this one?

Speaker 2

Well, thankfully, I think employers both nationally and internationally are taking employee well-being very seriously in 2022. And you’re correct, Michelle. It is much more than just a box to get a free yoga class here and there.

Speaker 2

Not that there’s anything wrong with yoga. Oh, not at all.

Speaker 1

I mean, enjoy your downer face and duck!

Speaker 2

More and more, I see it being recommended by academic and organizational psychologists. So I’m pro-Yoga. The situation, there probably isn’t a very simple solution because it’s such a large problem and different researchers have different suggestions.

Speaker 2

So in order to address it, employers really need to fully understand why employees are leaving and the global consulting firm McKinsey & Company reported that when employers were asked why they thought employees were leaving, they tended to believe that compensation and work-life balance and poor physical and emotional health were the main reasons.

Speaker 2

These were important to employees but not as much as employers believed. The main reasons for leaving given by employees were that they didn’t feel valued by their organization or their managers or because they didn’t feel a sense of belonging in the workplace.

Speaker 2

Leading organizational researcher, Dr. Janet Shlaes, suggests that employers can improve retention by valuing both people and finances. So in line with that McKinsey & Company report, she suggests that employers can manage the negative effects of the Great Resignation by embracing a number of practices of people-centric organizations, particularly in the area of healthcare.

Speaker 2

These include a genuine commitment to people-centric values within the organization. For instance, when employees feel seen, heard or valued, they’re more motivated to work and to stay with the company.

Speaker 2

Also, a structure to work-life balance is something else that is worth taking into consideration. Intel, for example, have a hybrid working model, allow for time for family demands, meeting free Fridays and reduced meeting times.

Speaker 2

Then ongoing communication has many obvious benefits, but noteworthy here would be employee engagement, transparency and productivity. And then finally, then it’s suggested that organizations could implement well-being initiatives that include well-being coaching, well-being assistance programs, counseling, talks, mindfulness and so on.

Speaker 2

And then another organizational researcher, Dr. Mark Bellino, has presented some suggestions on how to retain employees also. Firstly, employees are more productive, more helpful and less likely to quit when they work for managers who trust them.

Speaker 2

An article published in the Journal of Management report of findings supporting this 13 years ago. So it’s not a new idea, but it’s still relevant today given the trend that we’re seeing. Also, the type of relationship that exists between employers and employees is noteworthy, rather than a give-and-take transactional type of relationship where both parties are solely focused on their own needs.

Speaker 2

Bellino suggests the benefits of establishing a deeper relational agreement, where there is mutual promise between the employee and the employer to cooperate and to stay together for the benefit of both parties.

Speaker 2

And there is research to support consideration of this also. And then I mentioned loneliness that was identified in the Irish study, reducing workplace loneliness. There are psychological and physical effects of loneliness and lonely employees are not as productive as their non-lonely counterparts.

Speaker 2

They find it more difficult to connect with their colleagues and the company that they’re working for and consequently lower job performance is seen. So these are some factors employers can take into consideration to retain employees.

Speaker 1

we’re looking at like employees being vulnerable in the workplace and it gives the employer an opportunity to assist them, to give them the support they need. Do you think there’s a strong role here for the employer to help them out like as opposed to as you said they’re kind of the trust that’s kind of lacking that sort of thing but even down to if a member of staff is struggling with a workload or if there is struggling and something that might not necessarily be happening during the working day but obviously as we now know and people might disagree with in the past that what is happening in your own personal life is really brought to work when you’re brought to work you bring everything every part of you goes.

Speaker 2

Certainly, it’s really important to think of it that way. I suppose firstly, it’s important to note that unless an employer is a mental health professional, they shouldn’t take on the role of a mental health professional themselves, but there will be a limit to the support they can provide.

Speaker 2

Yet they can still be very supportive in a number of very, very helpful ways. So if there was an employee assistance program, they could remind the employee of the service, they could conduct regular one-to-one check-ins with employees.

Speaker 2

There could be line management training on mental health, stress management strategies could be made known to employees, just being sensitive with the type of language that’s used when discussing a situation where somebody feels vulnerable, providing information on professional support available or access to external or online resources.

Speaker 2

Some companies now have designated employees who promote wellbeing in the workplace and share that information in a less formal way with their colleagues just to promote wellbeing. This isn’t exhaustive, but I tend to engage in most of these on a day-to-day basis in my role with Devo Health.

Speaker 2

With any type of intervention for, let’s say, stress management, cognitive behavioral therapy will be considered to be one of the very best. It’s very, very well known, cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT.

Speaker 2

It’s based on the idea that how we think about a situation affects how we act and feel. So our behaviours affect the way we think and feel. It’s necessary to change both the way we think and what we do at the same time.

Speaker 2

Our thoughts could help reduce stress, tension, and anxiety when we word them a certain way. Our interpretations of events have a large impact in on how we feel. So CBT has been shown in the peer-reviewed literature to work very well for a variety of mental health problems, such as stress and such as anxiety, excuse me, panic, depression, and a number of others.

Speaker 2

It can bring about effective results in a relatively short space of time. So it’s beneficial or accessible to both employers and employees. It can help reduce absence levels or help for an earlier return to work.

Speaker 2

If an absence was due to stress, and CBT helped support the employee in that area. It teaches people to change negative thought processes and behaviours to relieve the symptoms of mental health problems.

Speaker 2

Somebody would usually attend a minimum of eight sessions, be assigned homework and strategies to practise on between sessions. But the results by and large are very good.

Speaker 1

And can I ask you, do you think there’s a role for acceptance and commitment therapy between cognitive behavioral therapy and acceptance therapy?

Speaker 2

I think acceptance of commitment therapy is very suitable here for the topic of discussion today. It’s also an evidence-based intervention that over the last few decades has seen an explosion in the peer-reviewed literature but more importantly we see the long-term benefits for its use not just for mental health but also areas just like employee well-being or living a meaningful life for people who don’t report mental health concerns.

Speaker 2

So CBT is very effective, it gets results, there’s huge support for it. Sometimes in cases like burnout or stress or anxiety there can be pressure on a person to battle against these unpleasant thoughts and re-change the thoughts and challenge the thoughts and that can feel like a fight, that can feel quite difficult for some people.

Speaker 2

So that’s not a criticism of CBT, it’s effective but in some instances that battle can be a little bit too much so an alternative like acceptance and commitment could really fit in and be very beneficial.

Speaker 2

What makes our suffering worse is avoidance. Nobody wants to feel bad, we want to feel good. We talked about the toxic positivity earlier, when something bad happens to us we can often distract ourselves or try and get away from the bad feeling, block it out, that’s called experiential avoidance.

Speaker 2

It takes money forms but it is only a short-term solution. It is negatively reinforced behavior meaning that something unpleasant is removed from the situation and because the unpleasant thing was removed then that avoidance behavior is more likely to happen again.

Speaker 2

So unfortunately when we engage in experiential avoidance we don’t build up a resilience or an ability to cope with unpleasant thoughts or feelings. It works in the short term but not the long term and I don’t know if you’ve ever come across the pink elephant example Michelle.

Speaker 2

I don’t think so. Okay we often use it in acceptance and commitment therapy talks. So if I ask someone to try very very hard not to think of a pink elephant, really try hard not to think of it and really put a lot of effort into it and then I have them to stop and then notice what’s the very first thing that comes into the mind.

Speaker 1

pink elephant. I was thinking of a pink elephant the whole time, to be honest. I had a character going through my head there.

Speaker 2

In general, it could be possible for a short while to block that out or to not engage. But eventually, thoughts can come back, especially if they’re anxious thoughts or stressed thoughts or unpleasant.

Speaker 2

And it’s basically experiential avoidance that makes the suffering that bit worse. The pandemic gave people a lot of time to think about what they really wanted in life. Acceptance and commitment therapy is driven by action in the direction of our value of what’s most important to us on a very, very deep level.

Speaker 2

Again, we don’t let unpleasant feelings prevent us from doing what’s important in act. When we do that, we can still live a much richer and meaningful life and our suffering will reduce as a side product rather than in CBT where the symptoms are targeted directly.

Speaker 2

So that’s the big difference between the two of them. Acceptance and commitment therapy allows thoughts to occur as they are without trying to challenge them and stop them, almost like traffic driving by.

Speaker 2

You might wave at some cars, but not all of them. Act doesn’t promise happiness or even directly target symptom reduction. Like I said, it’s secondary. The goal of act is to be psychologically flexible in the presence of unpleasant thoughts, feelings and urges and so on.

Speaker 2

The goal is really to get better at feeling rather than just feeling better. And it helps us to notice thoughts as being just thoughts rather than accurate realities all the time. Rather than saying to ourselves, I’m not good enough to deal with this stressful work situation, we can reward that slightly to use our language skills to our advantage.

Speaker 2

We can reward that too. My mind is telling me that I’m not good enough to deal with this stressful work situation or I’m having the thought that I’m not good enough to deal with this stressful work situation.

Speaker 2

And we can take the sting out of the thought by using strategies along these lines that we can notice that the part is just a part. In his TEDx talk, Dr. John Forsythe has a line, the thought that I’m not good enough is no more of a thought than I’m a banana.

Speaker 2

And I love that. The next time someone has an unpleasant thought, there’s a silly one here, but it can work. It can be just as effective. If you wanted to try and sing that unpleasant thought in your mind to the tune of Happy Birthday, and see how you feel afterwards, it sounds very, very silly.

Speaker 2

But I’m not belittling the unpleasant thought. The thought is allowed to come and go because that’s what our brains do. We’re not fighting it, but we’re changing how we respond to it. We’re taking the power out of it.

Speaker 2

That’s just another example of what’s called a cognitive diffusion technique. And there are many others. Our minds are not always our friends, but they’re not always our enemies either. So we will encounter stress in the workplace.

Speaker 2

How we respond to that situation is what makes the difference between discomfort and suffering. If our only method of coping with unpleasant experiences is to block them out or avoid them, in the long term, it won’t be helpful.

Speaker 2

So we may find ourselves stuck in our comfort zone. And after a while in your comfort zone, it’s not very comfortable because it’s just the same thing. You may be missing out on the unpleasant experiences, but you’re also missing out on any of the positive ones that are happening simultaneously as well.

Speaker 2

And unfortunately, it’s easier for us to believe negative thoughts about ourselves and situations than positive ones. But when we practice these skills, that act can teach us that we can take a step back, observe what’s happening and not be overpowered by them.

Speaker 2

We are not anxiety or stress. We can experience anxiety and stress, but they don’t define who we are. We can choose how we respond to these events rather than just reacting on autopilot. And there is a strong emphasis on mindfulness-based processes and acceptance processes here in ACT.

Speaker 2

Acceptance doesn’t mean accepting suffering forever and it’s hopeless. It means acknowledging the reality of the situation, really. It’s becoming increasingly popular. Mindfulness, it has an important role here used in a responsible way in ACT.

Speaker 2

So present moment awareness allows us to receive lots and lots of benefits, like concentration, other health benefits. They’re well-documented in the literature. But what’s most important, I think, recent studies at Harvard found links between present moment awareness and overall happiness.

Speaker 2

So during a difficult and unchanging situation, like a pandemic, ACT teaches us to engage in meaningful activities to bring about a purpose for life. It involves a lot of values clarification and examination of how much of our time, our actions are engaged in value-consistent behavior.

Speaker 2

And that can be challenging for people to do because we can often get emotional when we think about what we value most. As ACT’s co-founder, Professor Stephen Hayes said, we can care where we hurt. And unfortunately, we can hurt where we care.

Speaker 2

Love isn’t everything. It’s the only thing. ACT teaches us skills to be comfortable with being uncomfortable and I think it’s fair to say Michelle the last two years have certainly been very uncomfortable for a lot of us.

Speaker 2

Importantly we’re seeing many studies being published now demonstrating the favorable results of ACT for those affected by COVID both in and outside of the workplace and there are more on the way and if anybody listening is interested in learning more about this and to explore the potential benefits of ACT for inside and outside of the workplace a good starting point that I recommend is The Happiness Trap by Dr.

Speaker 2

Ross Harris or Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life by Professor Stephen Hayes co-creator of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.

Speaker 1

so many things there, so many things. I’ve seen time and time again lately is back to what we’re saying about how we react. It’s normal to have negative thoughts but it’s how we respond so it’s kind of helping your brain and training your brain to not go down the spot or to not.

Speaker 1

One thing comes in and 20 minutes later the world’s out to get us.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And when we ruminate like that, we make the problem bigger than it really is sometimes. It’s just how language works. Animals don’t have that problem because they don’t have language. So there’s an interesting TED Talk actually by Stephen Hayes as well, as mental breaks to avoid mental breaks.

Speaker 2

And he goes through some of those strategies to help in situations like that when the mind gets busy and it’s not necessarily constructive. So these are, they sound, some of them sound a little bit silly, like singing a a thought in your head to the tune of Happy Birthday, but it also can take the pain away from it or it’s painful from it.

Speaker 2

And it’s not being blocked out. It’s not being avoided. The experience isn’t being avoided. The person is changing how they respond to it, which is the major difference.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but it also takes us back to that moment that if you’re able to put something to the tune of Happy Birthday then it’s not the end of the world. And I think one thing for the last two years we’ve all been through the ringer and back sort of thing, we’re still okay.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And that’s the thing. And we can always look to clarify our values, what means most to us. And when we do that, we can put ourselves through very unpleasant situations and feelings, and it will be worth it to live a life in the direction of values.

Speaker 2

Slightly different goals. Sometimes they’re a little bit mixed up. A value is like a life direction. A goal is something that can be achieved. So when we go to that deep value, we’re on the right track and we can take committed action in that direction.

Speaker 2

And that’s where acceptance and commitment therapy, where the name came from and what it’s all about, basically.

Speaker 1

It’s a brilliant way to look at it, really good. Steam, I think you could try it all day. And I’d like to really thank you for joining me today. There’s so many things that even, I was taking notes to it and I was like, I’ll have a look for that book.

Speaker 1

There’s so many amazing things. And it’s just really equipping yourself with the scales and with the tools. Nobody else can do it for you. It’s just kind of bringing yourself along and equipping yourself properly.

Speaker 2

and acceptance and commitment therapy. It’s so accessible. We can learn some techniques in a couple of moments. And then there are other ones that take a bit longer, but they’re worth it. They’re all worth it.

Speaker 1

Well, you’re about yourself for life, so I think we’re worth it. Absolutely.

Speaker 2

it’s a good way to look at it too Michelle, yeah, you should respond to ourselves kindly.

Speaker 1

Yeah, definitely we don’t. One person you’re not getting rid of, it’s yourself.

Speaker 2

so happy to be here today we shall

Speaker 1

Thank you so much, Stephen, and thank you to the listener for listening to another episode of Zego Talk. Stephen has given us brilliant takeaways here, and I think there is definitely something for everyone to learn.