Understanding and avoiding employee burnout

Speaker 1

Hi and welcome to another episode of See If I Talks. My name is Davina Rand-Kassoon and today I’m joined by the wonderful Anne Gleason. We will examine the leading factors in employee burnout and how we can best combat it.

Speaker 1

We’ll also have a look at how remote workers and office space workers need to differ and how employees can start looking at addressing both needs. So, hi Anne!

Speaker 2

Hi Davina, how are you? Good, how are you? Not too bad, not too bad, glad to be here.

Speaker 1

Oh, great to have the session on Burnout. I think it’s really timely.

Speaker 2

for sure, absolutely. I think that it’s something that a lot of us are reading about, experiencing, hearing about from other people, and I think it’s so, so useful to be aware of what it looks like in the lived experience, do you know what I mean, so that we can kind of identify these ways of looking after ourselves.

Speaker 1

Definitely. Because there is this like perception that if you’re burnt out from work, you just can’t handle the work or there’s something wrong with you because everyone else seems to be, you know, coping with everything, doing splendidly, still hitting targets, performance metrics.

Speaker 1

And I guess with that, with the remote work thrown in, it’s hard to see the days when people are going, I don’t have a clue what I’m doing here. I can’t handle this. There’s too much to do. I’m so stressed.

Speaker 1

Mm, yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. And you know what, I think that aspect of the separation or the detachment from the collective is such an important part of what’s impactful within the burnout experience at the moment.

Speaker 2

This idea of, okay, this is now personalised because I am living in my own space, I’m in my kitchen, I’m in my sitting room, so this is my own kind of isolated experience. And also as well, like if we’re in our own space for a long, long time, we’re up in our heads, we have perhaps maybe unrealistic standards for ourselves, unrealistic expectations for ourselves, and we can be quite hard on ourselves.

Speaker 2

Do you know what I mean? Like for other people, we can give them compassion, we can give them the benefit, the doubt, but for ourselves we can often have that really tough process for ourselves. So if you think about that with the experience of the detachment of communication and the detachment of connection as well, or at least the kind of change in the format or the decrease of it, that’s bound to have an effect on people’s day-to-day experience.

Speaker 2

That’s tough going.

Speaker 1

And it really is tough going. And burnout is classified under the International Classification of Diseases. And it’s in its application to work, though it’s specific to our experiences of work, of chronic workplace stress, that has not successfully been managed.

Speaker 1

And all of those things that you mentioned, within the ICD-11, they classify three key areas. And they look at the feelings of energy, depletion, or exhaustion, this increased mental distance from one’s jobs, or feelings of negative feelings towards work, or end cynicism, which is very interesting.

Speaker 1

Because you can hear that as one of the loudest symptoms I find in burnout when you hear people talk about their roles. And when you can couple it with the feelings of energy, depletion, and exhaustion, you can start piecing it together.

Speaker 1

But the last piece there is then just the reduced professional output and efficacy. But also the confidence in yourself to do your role. It’s a sense of coming back to that sense of, there must be something wrong with me as to why this is happening.

Speaker 1

But really, it’s part of that process of how your personality is interacting with your work and the environment in which you have to do that. So there is a two-part process in this. It’s not just all on the individual.

Speaker 1

If there’s factors in the working environment which are facilitating this burnout, then that has to be addressed too for the employers. And I think that’s where people in leadership, they really understand technical aspects of the work.

Speaker 1

But this is why workplace wellbeing is so important because you have specialists like yourself and myself who understand the psychology behind it. You’re able to see this as part of a mental health illness as well, it’s not just someone who’s unable to do their role, but it really does leave the individual feeling as if, this is my problem, this is all on me, why is everyone else coping and I can’t do this?

Speaker 2

Yeah and you know what like I’m so glad that you kind of worked through that definition in a really detailed way because there is always that aspect of the definition that sticks out for me where I’m kind of going hang on a minute now but it’s this idea of has not been successfully managed.

Speaker 2

You could look at a statement like that and have that understanding of okay well there are so many factors to this like you say the kind of structural factors the need for other kind of influences and encouragement and input to be there but it would be a natural tendency for it to become personalized because you know and especially in a remote setting you’re the only person that’s living this experience so you are the person that’s feeling all of those different things that cynicism that lack of motivation that apathy all of those things tie into each other and they compound each other as well but if it’s a difficult experience then to kind of either acknowledge or to address if we think okay well this is a me problem as they say you know and it can be quite challenging in certain kinds of workplace cultures or certain kinds of environments whereby there might not necessarily be enough psychological safety or there isn’t that space to be authentic or to be vulnerable or there isn’t that approachability and of course there can be a number of reasons for this you know what I mean but as a whole let’s say those people who are kind of in those managerial positions and in those roles of support and in those roles of care and watching out for people and minding people need to be aware I suppose of the fact that it is a multifaceted experience it’s something that comes as well like it’s something that comes up over time and it takes time to kind of recover from as well so it’s such a complex process even like to use the phrase burnout or I’m burnt out it is now part of the kind of 2021 narrative because people are seeing it more people are experiencing more like I say they have more of an awareness of it so when something becomes like a buzzword or a buzzphrase it kind of loses that meaning as such do you know what I mean we kind of step back from it so we hear it and we think okay well I know what that is but we don’t necessarily know the ins and outs of it or to understand that okay this is something that can be inevitable for people if they are in that process of not having outlets or not having support and as well like to kind of come around that personalization piece as well it’s so so important for people to understand that this is not a reflection of of skill talent experience ability it comes down to capacity so capacity to be able to manage what’s happening and also to lean back into that definition as well successfully managing something is not just a one a one-person show you know and for us to understand that capacity is uh like it’s we’re stretched so much at the moment because of everything that’s happening around you know I always kind of make jokes in my own work saying I’m always talking about COVID and all roads lead back to COVID and all that kind of stuff but really we can’t leave that out we can’t leave out the cumulative effect of working through a global pandemic and the impact of all of the intricacies of that on our capacity and how that reduced capacity can lead to aspects or symptoms of burnout and this is something that is uh naturally widespread it’s global the hint the clue is in the name but uh the idea of uh it being a collective experience as well shouldn’t take away from us having the ability to step into our own space and to say okay well what’s happening for me individually from all of these different factors and from all of these different complexities I suppose.

Speaker 1

know what I mean? Yeah, you’ve explained that beautifully. And I think just to touch on one of the points that you said there, it’s that a burnout is the not having enough. It’s, you know, you’ve depleted your resources to cope because you’ve been functioning at such a level because of the environment that required it.

Speaker 1

And it’s just important to note that it’s not just stress. Stress is something different. Stress is about too much work. And, you know, that can obviously impact our physical and mental state. But burnout is, you know, you’ve endured stress for so long.

Speaker 1

Your capacity to cope and your resources to cope completely outweigh your ability to recover. And like you’re saying, recovery from burnout is one thing I don’t think we hear enough people talk about.

Speaker 1

Because this process of burnout is usually very slow, gradual, and accumulative, that again plays games, maybe mental games for the individual to say, am I imagining this? And also because the energy fluctuates.

Speaker 1

So it’s not just once you’re burnt out, every day you’re burnt out and you can’t get through your workload. There’s naturally days where you have peaks in energy and you go, actually, you know what, maybe I was just having a bad day and I’m fine.

Speaker 1

And then you have another couple of bad days that set in and you start to feel these emotions and you’re having all these thoughts and you’re trying to piece it all together. And you start trying to rationalize things of how you’re feeling.

Speaker 1

But that’s, you know, the slow, accumulative growth of burnout and how it impacts us. And it’s just that sense of if it takes that long to get to that point of burnout and understanding that when you get to burnout, it’s not the same as resilience and just, right, you’re out of that stressful situation.

Speaker 1

I’m going to bounce back to my full force again. You know, because there is a mental impact of burnout, it might take you a while to rebuild your confidence in your skillset, to say that you can handle going back into a type of role or into a managerial role and being responsible for a team’s performance, or even just going and putting yourself forward for a promotion.

Speaker 1

I hear so much now, people are talking about jobs and we’re thinking around the great resignation. But what they’re saying in relation to looking for new jobs is, is this job stressful? And they want to know about the stress.

Speaker 1

They want to know about the culture. They want to know, you know, what the job is, what support is available. And from that, they’re going into new situations more mindfully than they would have done prior to the pandemic.

Speaker 1

Because the value is reorientation, just understanding what is good for my wellbeing may not be going into another high pressured role or a role where you are concerned about culture or targets or how you’ll be supported and cared for in that organisation.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah. And isn’t that such a wonderful thing that people are allowing themselves to ask these questions, that they’re stepping forward? Because that, depending on what your own experience is, and depending on what kind of environments and cultures that you have experienced, that can be a really difficult thing for people to say, what is the, what are the stress levels like?

Speaker 2

What are the emotional well-being of the mental health focuses like within this? And I think that that really links well back into that idea of perhaps why people are having those experiences after, within that kind of burnout recovery of saying, well, I’ve had an energetic day, maybe I was just imagining it, maybe I just need to get back at it, maybe this is second guessing themselves, basically.

Speaker 2

So, and even to kind of take that one step back further as well, why do people feel the need to get back into action immediately? Is it potentially because they like have got that energy and want to take the reins?

Speaker 2

Or it could easily be a situation whereby there isn’t that deep collective structural understanding of what burnout really means. Like you say, it’s not just stress. It’s not just having an anxious few days.

Speaker 2

It’s about looking at the timeline of that and knowing that it’s not a quick fix. It’s not just a kind of a turnaround going away for a weekend, coming back. And there has to be that greater allowance for the reality of the situation.

Speaker 2

And yeah, I could imagine that people would, depending on what their relationships are like and depending on what their kind of responsibilities and connections are like, would be eager to get back to quote unquote normal.

Speaker 2

But really, this is where the learning comes around this and this idea of, okay, we know that this is different, like you say, and we have to allow for the, like I said, that reality of the situation to come into play here.

Speaker 2

And is it a case that there are situations where it’s like, oh, okay, push, you know, get back as soon as possible. Whereas that’s not going to solve anything. That’s not going to allow you that recovery time.

Speaker 2

That’s not going to, going to allow you to take the rest and do what you need to do in those, in that flow of energy, when it’s kind of higher and lower, some days that light and change of the week, where you need to cultivate those reserves, where you need to take that, those slow periods and you need to take that rest and you need to build, build on those reserves, not just kind of a kind of a strike while they are in this harsh mentality of going,

Speaker 2

I feel great today, so I’ll get back to the way things were before. It’s not the case.

Speaker 1

No, not at all. And the sentiment of, well, what are you going to do, maybe, to stop or to prevent your own burnout? And I know this is controversial, but I don’t think it’s based on your reaction. Go for it.

Speaker 1

No, I think that’s really important to note, because while there are individual factors which may contribute towards burnout, such as perfectionism, it’s not the whole picture. So we can’t place all the emphasis on the individual to prevent themselves from getting burnt out.

Speaker 1

Say, for example, if you’ve got someone going into a job where you’re kind of working longer hours than usual in terms of, you might find, you know, the first couple of days, oh, it’s grand. I’ll just log on and do this.

Speaker 1

Or, oh, look, I’m at home. I’m not doing anything. I’ll just check my emails. Or I’ll just stay later and I’ll get this done because then it will help with the workload tomorrow. Again, accumulatively, if you’re doing that, because the workload is there and you need to do it, those hours all accumulate, the demand there all builds in the background.

Speaker 1

And organizationally as well, you know, there’s a way that the work can be done. But what we do know is even under times of extreme stress and pressure, if there is a high amount of support and resources and managerial support, line management support, and if you’ve got a lot of control, that will create a significant buffer to the protect it to burn out from even maybe arising.

Speaker 1

But if you’ve got, you know, unfavorable environment where you’ve got though, you’re working longer hours, your workload is, you know, very high, maybe a couple of people’s workload, you haven’t got enough resources or support, and there’s not enough maybe flexibility, then that’s where you start to see the, and there are other factors there as well, which contribute towards burnout from an organization’s perspective.

Speaker 1

But when you start to kind of look at how each of these blocks individually might not have a significant effect, when you start to have them accumulate, that’s when like, and I’d say if there are any managers listening, you know, it’s no harm just to kind of take stock of what your team’s work is doing, maybe seeing, you know, are they working longer hours?

Speaker 1

Is the workload, you know, quite high? Even if there are seasonal pressures on workload, understanding that cyclical pressure that might arise, thinking about the resources that you can give them, but also in terms of what else is out there in the organization, because we are looking at this from an organizational perspective as well, and we don’t want it to be on any one line manager to prevent burnout.

Speaker 1

But we do have to understand, do our teams have the resources they need to do their jobs, as well as the support required, and the pandemic as well, like, in terms of autonomy and flexibility, these are two key things that employees are using their voice to say that they need more of.

Speaker 1

Because what we tend to find is when employees have a voice, when they they’re able to make work work for them, they’re so committed to the organization, and they will have a discretionary effort in how they go about doing their work, they’ll go the extra mile, because they know they’re being looked after, and they’re being valued.

Speaker 1

And one of the things with burnout in terms of how it might be perceived by the organization, is it might just look like a lack of interest or disengagement, like this person isn’t bothered about their work anymore, which can be damaging to facilitating a conducive plan or support to prevent that from escalating.

Speaker 1

Otherwise, it just feeds more into the frustration of both parts of feeling that they’re not getting what they need from one another, and there’s not a sense of, as you mentioned, collaboration earlier.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know what, that is those symptoms of burnout that would present as that. There are certain ones that are more kind of have negative connotations, let’s say, so that apathy, that lack of interest, I’m using my inverted commas here.

Speaker 2

But really, like, to go back to what you had said about that idea of it, okay, what are you going to do about this? For sure, that sense of autonomy, that sense of agency, that sense of empowerment is so, so important when there are all of those barriers.

Speaker 2

And when there is that, potentially, when there is that onus on not only what are you going to do about this, but what are you going to do about this not happening again? Whereas, okay, we need to take a step back and say, let me get out of this particular experience of burnout first, before I think about preventing it down the line.

Speaker 2

But also, yeah, it’s something around that need to understand perceptions as well. Like, we would talk about this ourselves in our own social time, but with this idea of like, okay, everybody’s perspective within the greater collective is going to be different.

Speaker 2

So those people who are in a specific role and are part of a specific structure are going to have a different lived experience. They’re going to have a different felt sense of what it means to be within the workspace, both as an individual experience and part of the collective as well.

Speaker 2

So there needs to be that openness as well for understanding that perspectives will be different and pressures will be different as well. And dynamics will be different as well. So we have to take into account all of these unspoken things that can add to the pressure of the working day and add to the pressure of the propensity or the potential for burnout as well.

Speaker 2

And just what you’d said about the idea of just plugging on for a little bit more, just doing this. This is something that is coming up a lot in my own work, let’s say, around the just one more thing.

Speaker 2

I’ll just do this one little thing, especially if you’re at home, perhaps over the last number of lockdowns, there’s nothing else to do. You’re kind of thinking, well, I’ve nothing to do, so I may as well just do this.

Speaker 2

But yet you’re kind of breaking those boundaries that are really needed when there are less kind of physical role transitions and there’s less detachment from specific physical environments and there’s less face-to-face engagement as well.

Speaker 2

So all of these are factors, but for people to be so mindful of the cumulative effect of that that builds up over time, just this one thing. There are a lot of people that will work within industries and companies that are around the clock.

Speaker 2

The work never stops. There will always be focus on something. There will always be urgency around something. So potentially or hypothetically, you could push, push, push all the time, but you shouldn’t.

Speaker 2

And to be mindful of the need for the rest and the need for the break and the need for that to be paced throughout the day and throughout the week and to allow it as well. But that is a difficult thing if there is a kind of a burnout or a burnout style culture that people are working within because you can enter into a culture and understand what it is and you can disagree with it.

Speaker 2

But one person will not have this way to completely change the culture of a big collective or a big space.

Speaker 1

Yeah, definitely. And I think all of those things are what make it so much more harder if you don’t have a background in mental health to understand how I guess the logical side of this process. Because the emotions become so entwined with how you’re relating to one another, how you’re being perceived, and then how you’re performing.

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Speaker 1

What would you say would be like if so we’re saying you know burnout is is so heavily discussed right now it has been before the pandemic but it seems from the research and from the general articles and just from what’s happening in workplaces.

Speaker 1

People are more ready and able to say, I’m not doing so well right now. Like, for someone who is feeling that they might have identified with some of the symptoms that we’re talking about the feelings or the explanations like, what would you say an employee should do in the first instance, and I’m putting you on the spot here.

Speaker 2

Oh, listen, I’m ready to go. I’m ready to go. This is on my mind all the time. Really, it is. It’s always kind of going on because it’s happening for so much people that I would work with and stuff. And, you know,

Speaker 1

especially from the therapeutic side.

Speaker 2

for sure like yeah and it’s something you know what what really jumps out at me first and foremost is to try and detach yourself from the moral attachment you know what I mean I can phrase that better now but just it’s it’s it’s something that you don’t need to take on as a personal reflection it’s not something that is a flaw it’s not something that is a shortcoming it’s not something that you need to personalize by saying okay this must be because I have failed in some way this must be because I am not good at my job this must and then because these things spiral don’t they especially when we’re in our own space and like what we had said about capacity emotional experience would come into that capacity as well we have less capacity for emotional interactions and experiences as well or that kind of tolerance around certain situations so to be mindful of that as well but first and foremost with that just to to remind yourself and to keep reminding yourself that this is not a reflection of who I am as a person I have full worth I full value and this is something that I have before I do anything say anything all of that so just to be aware of that and aware of those maybe previously held beliefs that we would have have kind of had as part of our our mindset or part of our experience as well and you know it’s it’s it’s something that realistically speaking needs to be addressed whether or not we want to or whether or not we should be feeling like this more inverted commas but there could be a real difference between I’m having a difficult experience versus I should be able to deal with this I should be able to handle this you know what I mean and this is something I always talk about the shorts all the time I love talking about them I’m like a broken record aren’t I just like to drive those key points home but um yeah this idea of okay well what’s the reality of the situation the reality of the situation is that I am impacted there’s lots of different reasons There’s,

Speaker 2

we have to focus on our greater context, aside from a natural tendency to think, okay, well, it must be my fault. How do I, what do I do? And what we tend to do in that has become harder and harder on ourselves.

Speaker 2

No, if we can have that space for clear communication for, with somebody that we trust, that we feel comfortable with, within that workplace setting, while keeping that constant reminder that, okay, this is something that is affecting me because of lots of different reasons.

Speaker 2

This is something that is affecting me. And I deserve to get the kind of consideration and the kind of support that is needed in a situation like this. You know what I’m saying? So if you have a manager or a mentor or somebody like that to reach out and to describe the experience while also trying to keep it as non-judgmental as possible.

Speaker 2

And trying not to get in there with the apologies. I’m sorry about this, I’m sorry about this. Look at, nobody wants to experience burnout. It’s the worst, okay? So nobody wants to be in that position because it is so, so difficult.

Speaker 2

And if we put that kind of need to apologize on top of it, then that’s more pressure. So allowing yourself to say, okay, can I look at this as a situation that needs to be dealt with outside of the kind of personalization of it?

Speaker 2

Same way, let’s say, if you’ve got a project to work or you had something to do, you think, okay, let’s think about this. What do I need to do to sort it out? What do I need to do to get on top of it?

Speaker 2

What do I need to do to help myself within this situation? And if you are that kind of practically minded or you can link in with somebody who is practically minded while also allowing yourself to have that very real, very valid emotional experience around the difficulty of burnout, then you’re providing yourself with that kind of structural support, I suppose.

Speaker 2

And you know what? If you are in a position and you’re having that conversation with the manager and you’re saying that I am in this position, I am having this experience, you’re allowing them to understand what it’s like from your perspective.

Speaker 2

And it could easily be the case that it’s not just you in a situation like this because the experience of burnout comes from lots of different factors. It could very well mean that other people are experiencing those different factors because it’s not just you.

Speaker 2

So by flagging this, you’re doing your manager and you’re doing your workplace a real kindness, a service there by saying, this is the reality of the situation here. Let’s be mindful of this. Let’s focus on this in the right way, in the supportive way, in the kind of realistic way as well.

Speaker 1

Yeah, such good tips there. I think anything that I would maybe complement that with is again acting on the service part. Usually we go to companies because we believe in the product or the service that they’re delivering, which means we’ve already committed on an emotional level on some level in some regard to this company.

Speaker 1

We believe in the leadership, we’re proud of the work that we do and that the company does in most circumstances. So from that perspective then as well, if you’re burnt out and you’re thinking workload is not being managed appropriately, that’s a short conversation just to start with your manager, just to say, can we look at my workload?

Speaker 1

Can we look at prioritizing tasks and can we agree what might not be possible in the long run given the time associated to each task or just how they might feed into other departments and tasks and how there might be delays actually along the way somewhere.

Speaker 1

So I think that conversation around workload is important to have. Indirectly gives the individual a bit of control over the situation as well. Prioritization of tasks is great as well, especially if you’re going, I need to get everything done.

Speaker 1

I can’t drop any of the balls here. They all need to get done. There’s something we hear regularly and maybe there are circumstances for people who are listening saying, yeah, it’s not possible to prioritize.

Speaker 1

Everything needs to get done. But I would say to what detriment, because once your health is gone, it’s not an easy road to recover from. So your healthy wellbeing, that’s your source of life, of energy.

Speaker 1

Everything that you can achieve in your life comes from your wellbeing and how you’re able to interact with people to others, your environment. So that is really important. And I think the other thing then that managers have been really aware of throughout the pandemic is the importance of showing value to your team.

Speaker 1

I think, yeah. And it means the world, even if you’re saying it from peer to peer, to have one of your peers say, oh, you did a really good job there. I could learn something from you, or I’m impressed by that.

Speaker 1

Any employee in the organization can show a source of value to another person and the work that they’re doing and contributing towards the overall organizational goals. So if you’ve got colleagues that you’re seeing are doing great work, don’t hesitate to let them know.

Speaker 1

And if you’re a manager, it’s that sense of just continuous reflection, reward, gratitude, and appreciation for the work that is being done. Because that builds a sense of cohesion. It leaves you feeling then as your work is purposeful, it’s meaningful, it’s being seen, and it’s contributing towards the organizational goals.

Speaker 1

And those are huge values that people really do put a lot, place a lot of importance on. And so I would say, yeah, from an organization’s perspective, to keep looking at those things, and an organization isn’t just an abstract concept.

Speaker 1

It’s made up by all these individuals who are very talented, who are there for a reason to contribute something towards the company. So why do you want to let them go? And I think that’s the thing that needs to come back in that community, the collective.

Speaker 1

And throughout the pandemic, we’ve seen this disintegration of social support. And there was a great report last October from Burnout, Britain, in the UK, obviously.

Speaker 2

Geography lesson as well. Great. Right step down.

Speaker 1

So it’s just highlighting, you know, this is going to get worse if we don’t pay attention to it. And there are certain groups as well. They in that report and McKinsey have noted the same or similar findings as well, just to say that parents, more predominantly in female caregivers, who are carrying the burden of the homework, the housework, as well as preparing for the children and still doing their professional roles.

Speaker 1

There’s a prediction that more women are going to be leaving the workforce. So how does that then impact diversity and how does that impact competitiveness and the loss of skill and talent that might drive?

Speaker 1

Because we know diverse teams outperform non-diverse teams. So you want that in your business. You want to retain that knowledge, that skillset and that ability to bring in diverse perspectives and hopefully create a more competitive product or service.

Speaker 1

So definitely that’s the key thing to keep an eye on as well. If you do have any caregivers, parents in your teams, having a conversation with them and seeing how they’re managing, juggling, everything that’s going on.

Speaker 1

And then the other thing that is kind of apparent is some of the more drastic measures that, and I say drastic in terms of before the pandemic, they wouldn’t have happened. But maybe in light of the current circumstances, they’re not so drastic.

Speaker 1

They’re more like the pause breakers, circuit breakers, that’s what I want to say, in the accumulation of burnout. So you look at Bumble, Bumble, the online dating app.

Speaker 2

Very intriguing, Kwon.

Speaker 1

So Bumble, they closed their offices for a week because of the high levels of burnout that was coming through from the organization. But then this came out, you know, this is in the media and they said, this isn’t a solution.

Speaker 1

Closing the offices for a week is not gonna solve the levels of burnout, but we need to create that circuit breaker to give everyone that time to pause, reflect and breathe, come back and let’s put a strategy together so that they then come out maybe I think a few months after saying this is what we’re gonna do to look after mental health.

Speaker 1

I think other companies, you know, maybe pause KPIs for the year and just said, look, we know you’re doing a great job. Keep doing a great job. Stop taking on additional projects. Just ensure that your main part of your role continues and do that as well as you can.

Speaker 1

Other companies have included additional parental leave for people who might have children in reflection of, you know, some of the data that’s coming through. But I would say that those changes were made before these reports were coming out that I was seeing in any case.

Speaker 1

So you have some really thoughtful and forward thinking leaders who aren’t just waiting for everything to fall apart. They’re seeing the trends coming through. They’re listening to their employees and they’re going, we need to do something now before we start losing our talent and the teams that are in essence driving our success.

Speaker 1

So, and then in Iceland as well, there was a four, I think it was a four-year longitudinal study in which they measured the impact of the four-day working week. Now, you know, there are many different ways to bring about this breathing space.

Speaker 1

Some organizations might say, we can’t have a four-day working week. That wouldn’t work operationally. But we do know that those who are working remotely are working more intensely. There’s less natural cues for breaks.

Speaker 1

And you’re not seeing people. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the support element. Go on. And we’re all trying to replicate that as best as we can online. But it’s not the same as being with your colleagues. Definitely not.

Speaker 2

No, not the same. And I think that there is, the great thing about those kind of movements or those processes is that there’s a realistic outlook on those things. And there is this idea of, okay, it’s not reactionary.

Speaker 2

It can’t be. And also there is, like you say around the kind of circuit breaker, there is the realistic viewpoint as well around that, that, okay, we know that this isn’t a fix all situation, but it is and needs to be part of a bigger kind of system or a bigger plan to have that.

Speaker 2

And realistically speaking, to look at what the reality of the situation is like now versus what it’ll be like as time rolls on versus what it’ll be like as the cumulative effect of all these things happens, to bear that in mind is such an important part of managing a situation and how burnout can result from any given situation.

Speaker 2

You know what I mean? And for workplaces to create space to hear the things they may not want to hear or that don’t fit in with maybe previously held plans. And to have that dynamic approach to what it means to create that collective process as well, because you’re only sort of swimming against the tide.

Speaker 1

100% and I guess just not to get defensive in that process as well.

Speaker 2

Yeah, exactly. And this idea of, well, this is the way we’ve always done this. Yes, but we haven’t lived throughout a global pandemic where so many people have had to work remotely and have been away from their loved ones and their family and are connecting through screens where there’s audio delays, there’s visual delays.

Speaker 2

There isn’t like eye to eye contact. And there’s all of these different factors that comes into that space that feels real, but is not the same. And pay off that we get from a face to face situation.

Speaker 2

So all of these all of these things seem like small things, but they’re not small things. They all have an impact and they all have that punitive impact as well. So to be mindful of all of that stuff and say, OK, this is not the greatest situation that we find ourselves in.

Speaker 2

But can we go with it? Can we move with it? Can we move accordingly? You know.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I think the, the only other things to note then is like, we are talking a lot about the pandemic and remote work, but burnout didn’t just crop up in response to the burnout in response to the pandemic burnout has been here before the pandemic, when we were all a hundred percent onsite or in the office.

Speaker 1

So I think, you know, the signs and symptoms still look the same, but they’re harder to spot remotely. And the support all is still the same as well. When you’re thinking about your employees being in the office, the only thing that might be easier is that if you are in the office, maybe on the same days, your manager is, they’ll see it much more quickly.

Speaker 1

They’ll pick up on the changes and they will know the work and how it’s been coming through and you know, where the pressures are. So the visibility on it might be easier, but you have to, there might be some level of upskilling there for a manager to be able to understand that this isn’t just a behavioral issue in terms of disengagement maybe if they’re only seeing some behavioral changes, it’s really having the skills to have the conversation,

Speaker 1

open conversation and to be able to say, are you okay? I’ve noticed maybe you’re not behaving in the same way as you would normally, you know, you’re coming into work late and you’re withdrawing from the team.

Speaker 1

You’re not having lunch with us. So you’re not contributing as much as you used to. You’re quiet a lot in the team meetings. Is there something that I can support you with or is there something, you know, we can talk about and just see what’s happening.

Speaker 1

And that does take a lot of wealth, a number of things, confident for a manager to be able to open up those conversations because they can be scary in the beginning if you’re not used to working in that way, you might feel like you’ll make things worse.

Speaker 1

So you’re, you’re trading into personal territory that you as a manager have no right to enter into. But it’s also the sense of, well, what do I do with this next after someone said there might be a problem.

Speaker 2

now yeah yeah yeah and you know what as well from the let’s say the employee’s perspective as well there needs to be that and we’ve definitely spoke about this before but there needs to be that distinction between uh if I talk to you about this if I open up myself to you if I if I am vulnerable with you this can’t have an effect or it shouldn’t have an effect on my uh my role this can’t have a knock-on effect does that make sense so there may be that those kind of reservations around saying okay well if I say I’m struggling will this have an effect on my ability to go for a promotion or go for a raise or to keep my space or anything like that or to show my my my ability

Speaker 1

Yes, and I think just noting the next piece that I was going to mention from a very professional and personal viewpoint is we have half a team of therapists and counsellors and psychologists who are in many ways on the front line providing emotional support to a client load and we’ve like this is this is well documented in the media now this importance of recognizing therapist burnout as we go through this parallel process and we you know we’re therapists will be living the same situation but providing support on an emotional level to their clients who are experiencing similar or distressing events pandemic or non-pandemic related life still continues to throw up these challenges that we do need to look outside of ourselves for a little bit of additional support from a mental health professional so I know from our training perspective I’ve been seeing so many of the providers in terms of counselling schools looking to provide additional training to their therapists to ensure that they’ve got that little circuit breaker again to ensure that they’re pausing to reflect on what their needs are how they’re being met and what self-care is in terms of yes looking on just after yourself on the individual level but also in terms of your role and ensuring that you have the professional support available to you in terms of supervision for example to protect you from the potential of burnout so just a little shout out to all of our team and our well-being specialists thank you on behalf of all of us

Speaker 2

I’ll take that one.

Speaker 1

We are doing a very meaningful role in a very challenging time. I think I have to say that definitely to recognize and acknowledge our own internal teams.

Speaker 2

So what you’re saying is, I get a half day now to do that. I just go straight out the door now at lunchtime. Thank you very much. No, to be serious, though, absolutely fair in that sense of anybody who’s in a profession like myself, psychotherapy, or anybody that’s in a caring profession, any kind of a profession, needs support because outside of your role and outside of what you do as part of your work,

Speaker 2

you’re also a human as well. And you’re also living within that tighter capacity the same way as anybody else. And there might be those people, let’s say, that have that feeling of, oh, well, I do this all the time.

Speaker 2

I should, and I can speak personally on that. I am dibbled for that, where I would say, I talk to people about this all the time. Surely I should know what to do when I get into difficulties or challenges or anything like that.

Speaker 2

So then you’re cutting yourself off the path because you’re thinking, well, I must be useless. Or maybe that’s just my train of thought. But it’s a thing whereby, OK, well, your own experience of taking care of yourself is outside of your role, whatever that role is.

Speaker 2

And that support system needs to be there. So whatever shape that takes for yourself long term has to be there, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1

Yeah, you’re not immune to it regardless of whatever role you do. And I think what I’ve been seeing from the British Psychological Society, there have been so many more psychologists speaking up and saying, yeah, you know, mental health, you know, I suffer from mental health illness.

Speaker 1

And this is how I still do my, this is how I, sorry, not still do my job. This is how I am able to do my job. And this is the support I get to do it because I wanted to just reframe that because there are times when people’s mental health illness is so significant and severe that it’s not possible.

Speaker 1

And again, there’s no weakness there and not being able to do it. It’s an illness. You need to have the care, the treatment to be able to recover from it. I think I’d just say like, if you have any form of counseling available to you, check it out if you feel you need it, whether it’s your employee assistance program, or you’ve got friends in your group or psychotherapists, and I’m sure everyone comes to you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, stop bringing me to Vienna, will you?

Speaker 1

But yeah, just the sense of, you don’t always need to have the answer. You don’t need to, people aren’t necessarily looking for a solution. Sometimes they just want to get out of their head, all the things that they’re thinking and feeling and just help unravel it in a very safe space.

Speaker 1

So if you’ve got a good friend or a manager or someone who you feel comfortable speaking to, if it’s not a mental health professional, then the great first start. And if you do feel you need counseling and therapy, it might be one of the best things that you might try just to take some of the, just to help unravel what you might be experiencing and build some skills from the time that you have with.

Speaker 2

professional. Yeah and you know what like that point about they’re not needing to be or or they’re not being a solution is a great one because we often feel like we have to with the kind of uh the fixers of us or the minders of us feel like we need to okay I’ll sort this out by getting to a solution but you’re absolutely right there are spaces or potential spaces in your world where you can just say I’m having an awful time or I just I feel cranky or I feel quite sad or I feel quite anxious or whatever it is you don’t need to find a solution for that you know and uh just getting over it this is I know that I’m sad I sound like a broken record with that because I’m always bringing that up as pet peeve of mine but people are like uh just get over it but uh sometimes to have that space to open up to hear yourself uh talking about what’s happening for you in your head and in your heart you know that’s so powerful it really is I know that as a psychotherapist I’m biased because talk therapy is my vibe but um it’s uh it is so useful and so helpful and so powerful especially if you are uh in a position when you haven’t had a lot of communication or you haven’t had a lot of face-to-face communication if you are at home if you are remote if you’re living by yourself or anything like that just to speak up and to just say this is all I need to do in this space not to go I need to figure this out or I need to find that solution like say or anything like that just do it yeah no yeah do it if you want to if you want to no pressure you have agency you have agency

Speaker 1

Oh, and it’s been great speaking with you today on such an important topic. Thank you so much for everything that you’ve raised here today. And we really hope that if there is anyone listening and they’re feeling that they’re feeling the pinch of burnout, or they’re struggling or trying to understand what they’re feeling, then please do reach out to someone.

Speaker 1

As I said, if you have an employee assistance program with counselors available to you, or you have someone in your network or a manager, or if you are, if there is a counselor that you feel you can, you know, maybe that’s something you can start up, but please do those things.

Speaker 1

We don’t want anyone experiencing this and suffering in silence. Thank you for listening to another episode of Zevo Talks. As we discussed, burnout is very much real. It’s here. And it really requires a whole systems approach to supporting the prevention and the recovery of it.

Speaker 1

So we really look forward to welcoming you back to another episode of Zevo Talks. Thanks everyone.