Exiting Lockdown: Tools needed to reduce social anxiety

Speaker 1

Welcome back to Zevo Talks. My name is Dabina Ramtsin and I am the Health and Wellbeing Director here at Zevo Health. And I am joined by the wonderful Angie who is our psychological well-being practitioner.

Speaker 1

This month, we’ll be looking at the emotions people feel about exiting lockdown. While some people are excited about the opening up of society, some are naturally feeling quite nervous and anxious about what this might look like after 16 months of staying at home.

Speaker 1

So thanks for joining us today, Ann. Really looking forward to discussing this really important focus.

Speaker 2

topic. For sure. Thanks for having me. Delighted to be here.

Speaker 1

Excellent. So should we jump straight in and we’ll just kind of look at first off, you know, what is anxiety? I mean, at this point in time, we’d probably be, most people will be able to reel off the symptoms, you know, off the back of their hand, but let’s start looking at it from a mental health perspective, shall we?

Speaker 2

Absolutely, yeah. For sure. I mean, I think that from my own work, let’s say, and from my own experience, there are a couple of things from anxiety and from social anxiety in particular that come up and it’s around the connection with the future, let’s say.

Speaker 2

So that’s kind of a big deal around anxiety. So that kind of anticipatory aspect of anxiety. I get there with words, but this idea of, and I think it’s a huge part of COVID as well and part of lockdown as well, is dealing with the unknown and having that confidence in yourself to kind of deal with that unknown.

Speaker 2

Naturally enough, we would have as humans, we’re all human beings, we have this thing called negative bias or negativity bias. So it’s when you’re geared towards what the most kind of threatening or dangerous or the most negative scenario could be or might be.

Speaker 2

Around that kind of survival mechanism, it’s really important for us from that evolutionary perspective to have that. We have to seek out that danger, we have to seek out that threat because we have to mind ourselves, we have to survive.

Speaker 2

But that can come into different aspects of our lives now, which aren’t necessarily that helpful, which aren’t necessarily that enjoyable, and that’s kind of putting it lightly. And I think that that’s a huge part of anxiety as a whole and a huge part of what we are dealing with now when it comes to that social anxiety, that unknown and that kind of forward looking, forward thinking and not knowing what’s to come.

Speaker 2

And because of that, thinking it’s going to be terrible, it’s going to be bad. And as well, when we think about social anxiety, a lot of it is a kind of finger pointing back to ourselves. So a really big aspect of it is that kind of experience of self-conscious, feeling self-conscious, worrying about our own behaviour, how we’re kind of exhibiting aspects of ourselves and how we will look within the greater scheme of things.

Speaker 2

And we have that skewed perspective when it comes to that social anxiety as well. So we think everybody’s looking at us. We think, why did I say that? That’s such a stupid thing to say. We think, I bet that person thinks that I’m an Egypt, or I bet this person thinks that I’m useless, or I bet they think this about me.

Speaker 2

So it’s a lot of consideration in the abstract, if that makes sense. But what I would say is that to look at what everybody has gone through over the last 16 months, and to look at how we have adapted, and how we have survived, really.

Speaker 2

And that’s the fact of the matter, but there has been a lot that we have had to work with. There’s been a lot that we have had to change. There’s been a lot that we’ve had to deal with as well. And I don’t think we give ourselves enough credit for that aspect of what it means to be within the human experience, is that we do adapt.

Speaker 2

And we will continue to adapt. But I think that when we’re in that present moment, and we’re looking forward as to what’s coming, it can be difficult to A, identify what’s coming, because it’s not going to be back to normal, it’s not going to be 2019 again.

Speaker 2

So we generally do that jump towards that negative bias, that worst case scenario, that catastrophizing. How am I going to deal with this situation? And also, we can think in absolutes as well. So we can think from our kind of lockdown position of being on our own, or being in a bubble with people jumping to, you know, like at a concert, concert, I’m really showing my age now, nothing, gig, at a gig with 20,000 other people jumping up and down to techno music or whatever you’re having yourself,

Speaker 2

you know, but it’s never going to be in those absolutes. That’s the thing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 1

pressure on ourselves? Naturally, and I like what you’re saying there because it’s that awareness that some of these feelings that people are having right now in relation to coming out of lockdown when we’ve had the messaging for so long to stay apart, to have social distancing, to be mindful in you know of our surroundings and how we’re behaving in relation to our environment.

Speaker 1

We’re now being told that okay it’s a bit safer to start changing those behaviors and so we would anticipate that it would be very natural for people to feel nervous, to feel anxious, to feel these uncomfortable physical and emotional and symptoms of the current pandemic but it’s that piece that says well when does this become a problem that I need medical or professional mental health support and it’s that sense of you know not everyone who dislikes crowds will have agoraphobia.

Speaker 1

It’s a common reaction that anyone who may be going into public places or into crowds, into the gigs or the concerts, you know traveling away from home where we’ve been bound to for so long that they might have some of these behaviors that says actually I don’t feel safe there.

Speaker 1

I feel nervous around who’s gonna be there, how I’m gonna feel safe, am I going to be safe, do I have an easy exit out of this environment if I don’t like it and so there’s that sense of going we don’t want to pathologize everything, we don’t want to label everything as a mental health illness.

Speaker 1

Some of these reactions are normal based on how we’ve been living and just going back to that sense of you know feeling that for ourselves you know that awareness that I might struggle with this and and this is part of the natural process after we’ve lived our lives for this period of time in very isolating conditions and in that sense as well that you’re talking about anxiety you know that narrow focus,

Speaker 1

that tunnel vision that might arise from certain thinking patterns and it takes us down a very narrow path we don’t see so many possibilities or opportunities open and available to us and that can be very debilitating and it’s important to observe for ourselves without judging anyone else because we all have different personalities we all have different experiences and we bring that with us to every situation we go to so that understanding that I may react differently to the how you may react and and even I think we’ve had that coming through in like focus groups and friendship groups where one person might be mad for the crack they might be going everyone let’s go to the pub let’s get out let’s do this

Speaker 2

Yeah, like a caged animal trying to be released, you know.

Speaker 1

And then you’ve got a few maybe friends who are going, I’m not quite ready for this. Yeah. I don’t feel comfortable. I don’t feel safe. I don’t want to do this. And it’s really important that you honor that and you find a way to manage your own well-being and build up your skills and your confidence so that you feel comfortable over time.

Speaker 1

And I know, yeah, and you and I had spoken about that process of habituation.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that, you know, I think you hit on a really important point in the sense of that need for us or that kind of default mode within us to compare, see how I am, see how I feel, is this normal?

Speaker 2

I mean, what’s normal? Do you know what I mean? So that kind of comparison piece comes into that process of habituation and that integration of what it means to be really like in an adjustment period.

Speaker 2

There is naturally a discomfort around adjustment because those of us who are more impatient than others, I’m putting two hands up instead of one here, but just for you listening, but I think that we can feel like that interim period is unfamiliar because it’s quite uncertain and that uncertainty can breed, this is strange, therefore that means this is wrong.

Speaker 2

But I think if we allow ourselves that period of really checking in with ourselves, seeing how we’re doing, having that conversation with ourselves to know that, okay, this might feel strange and I don’t need to compare my feeling to somebody else because I’m the person that needs to look after myself and those who are in your world and who are in your circle that love you and respect you will understand that everybody needs their own personal process.

Speaker 2

And if you’re having these kind of scenarios in your head or these kind of, because we all have them, these kind of conversations in the shower or whatever it is, what will this person say if I arrange to meet them and I feel like I have to leave early, then you get yourself into a state sometimes of panic or you have actual symptoms of anxiety and panic within that kind of anticipatory anxiety.

Speaker 2

Worrying about your exit strategy or worrying about what if I feel a certain way in this situation and if you’re putting yourself under pressure to not be able to leave, let’s take a social outing for an example, let’s say, if you’re putting yourself under pressure to not be able to leave, it’s that pressure itself that’s going to cause a lot of that panic and that anxiety.

Speaker 2

You know that feeling when you’re kind of metaphorically backed into a corner and that’s what causes the shortness of breath or the knot in your stomach or the, you know, you can feel your heart moving very quickly.

Speaker 2

And if you can give yourself that check-in while you’re in that habituation process, because it is a process and that adjustment stage and that kind of phase of integration, if you can say to yourself, okay, I’m going to see how I feel it at various points throughout this stage or this evening, if you’re meeting your friend for a coffee or applying to whatever it is, I’m going to allow myself to check in with myself and give myself permission to check into how I’m feeling at any given moment,

Speaker 2

leaving the shoulds and the should-nots out of it. I know you’re sick to your back teeth me, we’re talking about my shoulds and my shoulds, but you know, we do put ourselves under so much pressure when we are dealing with an experience of social anxiety.

Speaker 2

I shouldn’t feel like this, I should be able to cope with this better, even bringing back in that comparison piece. I see my pal is flying around the place talking to everybody and singing songs and whatever it is, why aren’t I like that?

Speaker 2

I should be more like that. Whereas everybody’s process, the same way everybody’s experience through lockdown was different. There’s always that same both mentality, but everybody’s personal subjective experience is different.

Speaker 2

You have to allow for the way that you move in the world and just go back to what you said about that connection with having an appropriate response to something. I mean, if you’re in a situation where, like you say about messaging, that you’re being fed from all corners for 16 months, don’t do this.

Speaker 2

If you do this, and if you carry that on, if you do this, there will be negative consequence. So you’re being taught that, you’re seeing it everywhere. So naturally, you would think that after that long amount of time, the appropriate response could easily be, I feel nervous.

Speaker 2

And I think going back to that absolutes, you can’t just snap back into something like that. That’s the thing. But I think that if you are to, yeah, make that connection between, let’s say, your experience and not necessarily apologizing yet, but bearing in mind, and a kind of rule of thumb that I always like to use is quality of life.

Speaker 2

That’s a kind of a broad foundation as to how we need to look after ourselves, what we need to do to take care of ourselves, when we need to kind of assess things or revisit things and stuff like that.

Speaker 2

So, you know, you can have that nervous experience and work through that and you can know, okay, well, I can understand why I feel like this because this feels so strange to me because I haven’t done it for so long.

Speaker 2

But if you bring it back to that foundation of quality of life, am I now in a position where my quality of life is affected? Are my anxiety and panic levels affected? Is this affecting relationships and my kind of social relationships with people?

Speaker 2

Is it affecting my work? Is it affecting my sleep? You know, there’s a number of things that you can look at within that kind of greater umbrella of quality of life. And really, you don’t have to be at a certain level to reach out for support or to ask for help or to set up a connection or a relationship with a mental health professional.

Speaker 2

You don’t have to be at a certain stage of a scoreboard to say, okay, I qualify for a psychotherapy now or whatever it is. If you feel that it will bring you benefit back to that foundation of quality of life, if it’ll help your quality of life and if you feel, okay, I am in need of a bit of support with regard to my quality of life, then absolutely do it.

Speaker 2

And we have to think of support as well as a network. Now, I live in Dublin, you live in Dublin, but I always think of support and network as I remember I used to drive to Dublin years ago when I got my car off first, and I would see the lights of the M50.

Speaker 2

This is a very specific metaphor, but I would see the lights of the M50 kind of lighting up and look at it as, okay, this network lights. That’s the way I would always picture a support network when it comes to emotional support and mental health.

Speaker 2

There needs to be a kind of wide and varied support structure out there. And it’s about being curious about what’s available to you and what works for you. So you’re lighting up all those lights with regard to that support network.

Speaker 2

That went off on a bit of a tangent there. Not at all. All roads lead to the M50 according to fitness.

Speaker 1

And I think like, exactly as you’re saying, you know, that process of exposure, so experiencing a new situation is, it requires that a level of discomfort is experienced potentially, dependent on where you are, how you’re feeling on the whole opening and easing of restrictions.

Speaker 1

So just to emphasize that our human tendency is to avoid anything unpleasant, whether it’s people, places, feelings, emotions, we don’t want to be in that place with those unpleasant situations and emotions.

Speaker 1

We want to feel good as quickly as possible. And so if anyone’s thinking around how they’re going to react or cope or behave in this new, with the easing of the restrictions, or even if people are going back to work and they’re thinking, gosh, I used to get the Lewis in, or I’d get the bus in.

Speaker 1

And we know there’s not much space on those modes of transport. Someone in a car may feel potentially safer, it’s their space, they have a greater level of control over who’s there and sharing it with them.

Speaker 1

And that anticipatory anxiety that an individual may feel, you know, it is potentially going to be difficult for some people. It’s going to require us coming out of our comfort zone and responding to what was once, you know, just normal daily behavior has now become, you know, a novel stimulus.

Speaker 1

We’re getting used to engaging in our daily commutes, even running it through our minds, mentally preparing for that. How will I cope, for example, if someone sits too close to me and I’m not comfortable with it, and there’s nowhere to go, there’s nowhere to avoid that situation because you need to get to your end point.

Speaker 1

And it’s that sense of going, okay, I know this is going to be potentially difficult, I’m going to be emotionally exhausted, maybe from the mental preparation, physically fatigued as well, because we know it takes a drain on our physical well-being when we are so overactive in our mind, and hypervigilant in a way as well to everything that is going on in our environment.

Speaker 1

Normally, we would go on our routes on automatic pilot, many times people will get in the car, they’ll drive somewhere, they won’t remember how they actually got there, things that they passed. And it’s a sense that, you know, we’ve got mastery over this skill that gets us from one place to the next, and we’re able to not attune 100% attention to everything that we’re doing, and all the processes and places that we pass that,

Speaker 1

you know, will hopefully get us to our destination.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Speaker 1

And so in that point of hypervigilance, being aware of our surroundings, who is around us, it’s going to cause and create a toll, an emotional, mental, and physical toll on us. And even just that awareness of, we’d be using our bodies in different ways, expending more energy by, the commute is no longer from your bedroom to the next room or the kitchen, or even just working in the same bedroom that you’re potentially in.

Speaker 1

There’s a greater energy expenditure from making that physical commute. And so that is also going to be feeding into the anxiety and all the other emotions, the thoughts that are leading you to get to the next stage.

Speaker 1

But just know that through that process of habituation, I, doing it over and over and over again, getting to feel comfortable with it, you build your confidence up and you feel that you get to know where your comfort levels are, how they’re adjusting.

Speaker 1

And when you look back on it, you’d see that at the beginning, you’d see have a higher spike, maybe an anxiety or stress. It doesn’t necessarily need to go to anxiety, it just could be stress. And you have that spike in the initial stages.

Speaker 1

And then as you go through the journey, hopefully your stress or anxiety will start to dip. And the more you’d go through that process, the more you expose yourself to this unpleasant situation, the quicker it will take you to habituate or come back to a comfortable level of functioning where you’re not constantly scanning and worried and thinking about who’s around you, whether you’re safe, engaging in negative thinking patterns.

Speaker 1

And you spoke about that negative thinking bias. The body has a time, has time to rest in that in that process or in that situation rather that you’re in. And I think that’s the bit that’s gonna be so difficult after having our safety be combined to our homes or if we’re in bubbles with people, we have safe places that we can get to.

Speaker 1

So I’d say employers and friends, family members, even children, they might be feeling, what does this look like now? How do I feel comfortable engaging in people who are around me? And just to think back as well, there were some great stats, I guess, just to share how much this is affecting a general population.

Speaker 1

So there was a study that was conducted last March at the beginning, towards the beginning of the pandemic by Manooth University. And I’ve just got the stats here. So they were saying 41% of people were reported feeling lonely, 23% were reporting clinically meaningful levels of depression, 20% were reporting clinically meaningful levels of anxiety and so on.

Speaker 1

And this has taken up a sample of a thousand people. So it’s not necessarily representative of the Irish population, but we can see those trends. And the recent data with the CSO, so they did their social impact of COVID-19 survey, which was released in February, 2021.

Speaker 1

You know, there was clear evidence to show that the 18 to 34 year olds, that age bracket were negatively, they felt COVID-19 pandemic had negatively affected their mental health and wellbeing. So 74%, almost 75% of that age bracket who completed that survey felt that the pandemic was having a negative effect on their mental health.

Speaker 1

And of course there are gender differences. So between women and men, women were reporting higher levels of anxiety in comparison to men. And we would have seen those trends in general, literature in general anyways.

Speaker 1

So I think it’s just, you know, thinking around, you spoke about support networks. I think that’s the pandemic has highlighted so clearly how important and how valuable our networks are having them removed.

Speaker 2

Totally, totally. And that’s I think that that’s a huge thing that has been a really jarring experience for for people in lots of different ways amongst the kind of the different stages of this lockdown or this kind of pandemic experience that that it’s been taken away, like you say, and feeling that kind of stark contrast of what it means to be without something that was just so easily attainable,

Speaker 2

you know, and something that kind of comes to mind as well around those like huge stats really aren’t they, you know what I mean? But amongst that as well, it’s important to look at what that means to be going through something like that, but also having an isolated experience.

Speaker 2

Now you can be lonely while surrounded by people as well, you know what I mean? So loneliness and isolation aren’t necessarily the same thing, but just to kind of put them together to be going through that feelings of anxiety or feelings of depression, and then having that sense, it must just be me, you know, it might not necessarily even be a formulated thought, it might just be a guttural feeling that,

Speaker 2

you know, I’m going through this difficult experience, and maybe that, like we talked about that comparison piece earlier on, maybe that is coming in along with that kind of self-talk of the shuds, I love the shuds, I love talking about them, I love talking about them, but this idea of why can’t I just deal with it?

Speaker 2

And we’re so so hard on ourselves, that kind of inner dialogue that we have, something that needs to be looked at when we are coupling the experience as a whole of COVID, when it comes to our mental health and our emotional well-being, the experience of loneliness, and the different ways in which we might find ourselves within that, and now this kind of burgeoning experience of dealing with the social anxiety that’s coming up for a lot of people.

Speaker 2

Self-compassion is something that, you know, when you think about that, like I spoke about that kind of foundation of that quality of life, and how we can engage with a social network, or a support network rather, to mind ourselves, and really look, the way that we speak to ourselves, it sounds so vague, doesn’t it?

Speaker 2

You know, be kind to yourself, and I’m like, I’m a psychotherapist, I can connect with people and say, you know, you really have to look after yourself, and you shouldn’t speak to yourself, and that way there’s the shootings coming out, but in a good way, in a positive way, but, you know, and I would kind of work with people and say, you know, that you’ve no reason to talk to yourself like that, whereas personally,

Speaker 2

you know, it can get to you, because we’re all human, but it is something that needs consideration, and it needs that regular checking. When we are dealing with the different waves of the emotional experience within COVID, and within the pandemic, have a check and see, okay, how am I speaking to myself?

Speaker 2

It sounds so simplistic again, but if you are holding yourself up to these far too high standards, yeah, up there, up there. I’m putting my hand up there. Let’s put both hands in the air. But if you’re holding yourself to those unrealistic expectations, really, it’s not a help.

Speaker 2

And when we talk about it in the abstract like this, we know it. When we’re sitting calmly, and we can access that kind of rational space, we know that it’s not helpful. But when you’re caught in that overwhelm, and you don’t have access to that, it can build, and it can grow legs.

Speaker 2

So if you are in a position where you’re dealing with a certain experience with regard to your mental health, or dealing with a certain experience of COVID that is impacting your emotional well-being, and if you’re talking to yourself in a way that you would never talk to anybody else, or like I smile when I say it all the time, but if you would get a dirty look, if you talk to somebody like that,

Speaker 2

or you would perhaps lose a friend, or lose a partner, then think about the impact that that’s having on you if you’re repeatedly talking to yourself like that. So we kind of need to, as corny as it sounds, be our own cheerleader within this.

Speaker 2

Because if we are allowing ourselves to experience new things and if we are building our own awareness of our resilience and if we’re building that kind of self-trust that’s going to help at a rate of knots in these new experiences because this is not going back to the old way like I said this is like I said this is a new experience you know so allowing ourselves to be in a position of creating habituation if we’re building that trust building that resilience will build that kind of ability in ourselves to do that I know I’ll be fine because I look after myself I know that I can trust myself I know that I have dealt with difficulty in the past I know that this is difficult now it doesn’t mean I can’t do it you know so it’s a big huge thing

Speaker 1

part of this huge thing and what you’re kind of leading into very nicely there as well is it’s a skill you know these social skills how do we behave in relation and interact to others you know we’ve been looking at each other through a screen for so long yeah and then and then you’re out in public again and you know it’s a skill that you have to build and continue using so if you’re feeling as if you know you don’t know how to hold yourself even you know you know yourself when you you might be in a public space and you’re not quite sure how to you know what to do with your hands where do i put my hands yeah

Speaker 2

I walk. I’ve forgotten how to walk.

Speaker 1

And just feeling comfortable in those situations, so that’s another part of it, that skill building. And just on self-compassion, very difficult, isn’t it? Oh, so hard.

Speaker 2

I talk big talk now, that’s my trade obviously, but you know, I feel myself sometimes gone, would you ever take your own advice like, you know, so it is difficult, it really is, but it’s again a scale as well, it takes practice and it’s not something that you say, okay, I’ve read an article about self-compassion and now the next morning I’ve woken up and I’m the most self-compassionate person in the world,

Speaker 2

you have to keep regularly checking in with that and also back to what you said about the kind of impact around energy and the kind of physical exertion and emotional energy that’s being used entering into these situations, going on your commute and stuff like that, knowing that like your energy is changing all the time and so your emotional experience, your mood is going to change all the time and that might mean that you yourself talk changes and that also might mean then you need to kind of bolster or kind of cushion yourself with different levels of self-compassion,

Speaker 2

you know what I mean, it comes back as well to that point, just before I forget, this idea of balancing, so understanding that this thing that I’m doing in my day is taking it out of me, so no wonder I feel tired, you know, so joining the dots in that sense and not kind of saying, because it’s been the experience of a lot of people where they would be moving from the couch to the kitchen table where I’m at now and kind of mentally stimulated all through the day and having a huge mental and emotional workload and then at the end of the day saying,

Speaker 2

why am I so tired, I haven’t moved off this chair all day, you know, but just to kind of step back and see okay, ah this is why, because I’ve been using other types of kind of workload and energy and stuff like that and try and create a balance within that as well, so yes, you have to kind of take steps to do things that might make you feel that sense of discomfort but you have to also meet that wish,

Speaker 2

I can do it, you know, it’s definitely something that I can do and it will get easier over time but to bring to kind of be realistic about it as well, so if you’re spending a lot of emotional energy and mental energy over a week to say okay, well maybe I need to take a day at the weekend just to chill out, read my book, whatever it is to create that bolster, that balance for yourself.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And just as you’re saying that in relation to the analogy that you gave that, you know, that speaking to yourself, you know, that awareness of, gosh, this is really tough. Like, I find that is often that obviously that is that is self-awareness, that is awareness and acknowledgement of the current situation.

Speaker 1

You know, you’re being mindful of how you’re feeling, how you’re responding and reacting internally. But the interesting thing is, if you have an if you feel like you can’t cultivate this sense of self-compassion and you’re reading, we’re reading so much about it.

Speaker 1

I know, I know I’ve seen so many articles throughout the pandemic about self-care and self-compassion. But the interesting thing is that, you know, it can be really hard for people to experience this, especially if you feel shame, any trauma, any guilt, you know, your own worth, maybe, that it doesn’t just come so quickly, you know, you don’t just have it.

Speaker 1

It’s not just that, you know, you’re not just filling yourself with loving kindness and giving it out to others. It’s that sense of like how you said, yeah, it’s tough. That can be self-compassion, that awareness to give yourself a break, to just say, okay, yeah, this has been really tough.

Speaker 1

And it has been really hard. And I’m going to acknowledge that. That is your compassion to yourself in that moment. Start small, in essence. And I think that’s probably the key to a lot of this. It’s start small and be consistent with these practices.

Speaker 1

And I can hear people probably saying, it’s so hard. I start one thing, I think I’m going to do it for the week, I get to the end of day one, and I’ve forgotten it for the next day, or, you know, and then you end up in this cycle of, again, just going down the rabbit hole, I’m not good enough, I’ll never get there, I can never do this.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

can’t even I can’t even do this for more than one or two days or whatever yeah it’s yeah that’s huge it is and

Speaker 1

them. And especially through the pandemic, there’s been so many self care tips, do this, do that, don’t do this, don’t do that. And it seems so simple and so logical. You’re like, yeah, sure, eat a meal, get eight, eight hours of sleep a day.

Speaker 1

Don’t, don’t, don’t have your phone on. But the reality is that we are all struggling. And, you know, we’re having our good days, we’re having our bad days, there’ll be there’ll be days for people when they can absolutely go out and be in a social group.

Speaker 1

And there’s no problems. And what was I worrying for? You know, that was grand. And then you come in, you go into another situation. And it’s not the same. And you know, it might be that your resilience is a little bit lower that day.

Speaker 1

And having that awareness to go, okay, I found it, I found I was able to fly through that situation last time. Today, I’m finding a bit hard. Maybe I need to do something a bit different in this moment.

Speaker 1

And that can be that sense of I’m going to call it a day here, I’ve done the most I can. And that’s, that’s huge in that day. And in that moment.

Speaker 2

Absolutely, yeah, that’s the thing. Really like naming something like that, whether it be naming your particular experience and not kind of, what way would you describe it, like kind of getting in your own way by saying, instead of naming the fact that this is difficult, I’m going to say I’m absolutely useless for not being able to deal with that.

Speaker 2

That’s jumping onto that kind of shame piece really and it’s not, if you acknowledge what’s happening for you and allow it to be the case and know that it’s always going to be dynamic and things are going to change all the time and like you say those great examples about you can go into a situation and be like super social person and making everybody laugh and cracking all of the jokes, you know,

Speaker 2

and the next time maybe your particular emotional experience is different and you just can’t do it or the environment doesn’t allow for it or whatever it is, but just to kind of name what’s there, name as well what you have done within a situation because I think that within those kind of experiences when you are dealing with that social anxiety, we can have a tendency to go into that all or nothing thinking,

Speaker 2

have to stay up from 2am or else the whole night has been a failure and I’m useless at being social or whatever it is, whereas you can say okay I wasn’t feeling it today, my energy was quite low, I know I’ve had a busy week at work but I did go out and catch up with that pal and we had a coffee and we took a walk, so that’s something that I can add to my list of achievements as well and that’s what that would link into that resilience as well.

Speaker 2

The ability to identify things that you are able to do, things that you have done, achievements that you have done, keep them all as points of reference, you know, it’s not, nothing is lost in that sense, you know, so for, but that kind of naming piece is a huge thing I think for that process, not to kind of jump over that stage and just let it be there, but also this thing is that like, you know,

Speaker 2

like I said earlier, something might be difficult but it doesn’t mean that you can’t meet it and do what you can within that space, you know, they can coexist is what I’m saying, does that make sense?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, so much sense and it probably describes a lot of the conflicting emotions paired with the thoughts that can be so debilitating when again you spoke about that comparison piece well how was I before it wasn’t like this before why am I finding this so hard now and even for people with diagnosed anxiety related disorders, whether they have a diagnosis of agoraphobia or social phobias, they would have potentially felt quite safe.

Speaker 1

Yeah, being given the messages of stay home clothes, you know, have a smaller network, limit your exposure to public places, you know, you know, crowds weren’t necessarily a thing. And now, people may feel be skilled to go back out into those situations and just coming back to that, you know, building those skills as cognitive capabilities, the thinking, the awareness of thought and feelings that you’re talking about.

Speaker 1

All of that needs to be rebuilt. And that process of habituation that people may have, you know, overcome in the past, they may be looking at the bottom of the mountain from the bottom of it going, I don’t have the energy to do this again, or I don’t know how I’m going to do this again, or they might be going, well, I did it once, I’ll do it again.

Speaker 1

And, you know, and again, I think we’ve we’ve said this so many times, you know, start where you’re at, not with a comparison. And I have to say this because we’re talking about comparison and social media.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

start where to start um you know so we went through the pandemic and actually people were not out of living their best lives and socializing to the max traveling um and posting up their best version but just like a photo take instagram you’ve got your filters on it you don’t know how many pictures that person took before they posted and selected the one that they wanted to select you don’t know what was happening for them that day or in the lead up to it we present our best version of ourselves and i know a lot of our language and the way we interact with social media is changing in that people are trying to show their vulnerability and to show that you know that the mental health aspect of using social media and how they may be actually feeling but there’s that sense now that that comparison of how we’re living can open up again and if you’re not ready to be out socializing if you’re finding it difficult don’t compare yourself and easy easy to say that don’t compare yourself we will naturally do that but i think it’s about using and and i think we’ve spoken about this before and you know making social media work for you yeah so you know yeah and and i think one of the other trends that is coming through from the pandemic is that people are more interested in a value-driven meaningful life so engaging in activities that actually make them feel good you know whether it’s picking up that hobby that they they didn’t have time to do picking up the books that they wanted to read and you know life never you know the speed of which we were living life before didn’t really give them that time to do these things and even the sense of you know engaging in the news and all the fear that is created around that you know having times if you know you’re able to think about how do i want to spend my time what’s going to be what’s going to make you feel good at the end of half an hour or an hour and again with the greatest amount of compassion because i felt it definitely throughout the pandemic you’re going i know i should again you should do this i should go for a walk i should go for that run yeah but i i don’t have the energy to do it right now whatever block is in your mind you know the thing that you know that you should do to make yourself feel a bit better is sometimes the most difficult thing to do because again we want to go through the path of least resistance yeah absolutely and and so just kind of being mindful as to how we’re spending our our our spare time and even just checking in with yourself if you’re on those social media sites and you’re starting to feel it in your stomach what that you know you’re starting to feel maybe some of those physical symptoms that you mentioned earlier in relation to anxiety you know the quickening of the heart rate the sweating you know all of those physical symptoms check in with them because maybe it’s telling you that this is not helpful for you in this moment in time and the distraction this type of distraction is not going to make you feel good in the long term so maybe it’s about leaving the phone aside not comparing to how lives are changing and how people are getting on with it and you know having a great time potentially through that lens that we’re seeing because it is only one way and maybe focusing on on yourself and and really about the connection between you and an important other person or you know keeping trying to have that network if it’s comfortable having it smooth but focus on again that quality you know that quality of connection yeah

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely that kind of what kind of jumps out at me there is that kind of Authenticity is the word that’s coming into my head this idea of being authentic to yourself as to what is meaningful for you and what works for you regard to Given you that focus given you that kind of mindful time Given you that that feeling of of of goodness, you know And that can be an internal thing and an external thing in specific kind of connections that we have in our lives Absolutely true.

Speaker 2

And it’s it’s something I mean, I still grapple with that idea I’m pushing for teach, you know, I mean this idea of looking at something on social media and going oh And kind of making that internal noise I’ve gone it looks great or that they seem so happy but it’s it’s only ever a snapshot Like you say it doesn’t capture you can’t capture everything I’m like I was scrolling on social media and I saw actually You know the way they do these these videos in the stands Is it a football games or baseball games or something like that?

Speaker 2

And the the camera had zoomed in on a couple a kind of girl and the guy was just sitting off Like this looking really cheesed off and just didn’t want to be there and miles away from his girlfriend The girlfriend pulled out the camera and he leaned in smiled click and then back to his kind of sloppy demeanor there so you really can’t tell but it’s it’s interesting that it’s all it’s a surprise to see videos like that So maybe it’s that idea of okay Let’s base this in the context of what it means to be on this receiving end of seeing it And also yeah this idea of am I spending time?

Speaker 2

Kind of throwing myself into something that is leaving me with that empty feeling or can I do something within that? curating your feed like Looping in with with actual kind of topics and themes that are of interest to you that give you that sense of kind of an emotional nourishment and bringing it into your own world as well and developing that those authentic spaces and really Yeah tapping into what makes you feel good as such a subjective experience as well so I say this as I look over the room and see those bloody roller skates that I keep talking to you about but You know if it’s something that you feel God I feel great after that or I really got a sense of myself or You know,

Speaker 2

I did something that I feel really proud of or I had a great old laugh or even I felt so silly That’s a read there’s a goodness in that as well You know, so it’s it’s it’s it’s creating that structure for yourself while we’re entering into this new world and creating that ability to Be curious and to step into new things and try new things out while always kind of keeping that reinforcement of Developing your own self-compassion keeping a check on it and keeping a check on Where you’re at when it comes to that foundation of quality in life and what your needs are

Speaker 1

know what I mean? I like that it’s it’s it’s consciously creating a life that you know works for you in that sense of that authenticity and regaining control as well and as you were speaking I was just thinking around you know around the easing of the restrictions and you know people will be getting their COVID passports but does that mean you need to travel?

Speaker 1

Not at all. No. Yeah and and you know living that the life that that is going to make you feel most comfortable and bring you that quality life is the most important thing and something we sometimes forget about when we’re when we’re on the hamster wheel trying to keep up with other people and again we’re back at that comparison piece but I think from the pandemic again we’ve all we’ve all learned you know what you know to be in touch with our values and how important and how much fulfillment that brings us so we’re kind of at a point where we have new opportunities available to us but with opportunity always comes that sense of fear stress and challenge but we’re probably you know we’re not going to be out of it anytime soon and you know there’s that John I think it’s John Kabat-Zinn you know riding the waves sense of you know we you know we’ll take it as we come and we’ll overcome each challenge or new opportunity as it’s presented to us and I guess taking from that mindfulness aspect and in linking back to what you were saying there about you know that fear and anticipation of the future that anxiety naturally creates you know just grounding ourselves back in the here and now and I know you know from both our perspectives within counseling and psychotherapy grounding is a great technique that you can do anywhere and it can be so helpful you know just even the aspect of planting your feet your bare feet on the ground sitting back in your chair you know taking the time to pick out five things that you can see around you things that you can hear you can smell you can touch and just coming back to that connection of what is currently present and here with me now

Speaker 2

Yeah, what is around me and what can I actually connect with and how can I use something within my environment to kind of connect that mind and body as well. And you’re absolutely right that kind of putting your two feet on the ground, your bare feet, if possible, that grounding technique, tuning into the breath as well.

Speaker 2

It’s again one of those things that sounds so simplistic that you almost bypass it. But it’s so, so useful to bring you back because if you are in that mode of looking towards what’s going to happen and you’re delving into those what ifs, you’re not there.

Speaker 2

So if you allow yourself to be in that present moment, even just to give yourself a couple of minutes of respite, you’re able to bring yourself down from that state of overwhelm. And that is absolutely huge to be able to do that.

Speaker 2

And again, we might think it should be second nature, but it’s not. It’s something that we need to kind of work towards and we have to keep that check in. Same with the check in with self compassion, keep that check in.

Speaker 2

Are we allowing ourselves to be in a here and now situation? Are we allowing ourselves to be back into the present moment? Because like that hamster wheel, you’re up on it and then you’re go, go, go and you get caught up in different aspects of your day, whether it is things that you’re kind of engaged in or whether you’re thinking about what this is going to be like or what that’s going to be like or whatever it is.

Speaker 2

And another thing as well that I was going to say, you know, when you say about that rebuilding skills, those people who would deal with mental health issues around social anxiety and agro-phobe and stuff like that, to think about building.

Speaker 2

And it’s funny that you said it because building is something that’s been going around my head. The idea of it, concept of it for a long time now, this idea of slow down. You know, if you think about somebody building a wall, let’s say, you’re not going to say start building that wall there and then you walk over to the kitchen and make a cup of tea and they’re finished.

Speaker 2

It takes time and there needs to be focus on the actual, you know, if we break it down to the minutiae of the detail, like it needs to be, there needs to be a focus on each specific part of that task.

Speaker 2

So when you’re thinking of bringing yourself back into the world or entering back into the world, whoever way you want to describe it, build, you know, take your time. You talk about looking at and the pressure that we put ourselves under, being at the bottom of the mountain, looking up at the top.

Speaker 2

All you need to do is just go by the step that’s in front of you. And that’s, that’s all you can do anyway. You know, that’s all we can ever do is to go at that level. And if we can keep ourselves, our eye level there, then that’s going to be useful for us, building up that resilience, building up that trust within ourselves, because it’s just not possible to, you may have the longest legs in the world,

Speaker 2

but you won’t be able to step up to the top of the stairs or the top of the mountain, whatever kind of metaphor you need.

Speaker 1

And I think there’s this misconception that there is a top to the mountain that I will engage in psychotherapy or CBT, or I will start a regular exercise routine to help manage the physical symptoms of my anxiety.

Speaker 1

We know that raising the heart rate, for example, can help bring down and manage a potential anxiety attack through the tip skills that people have often used. But that’s not to say that once you’ve got into that routine, once you’ve mastered the CBT thinking techniques, that you’re never going to have a negative thought again, or you’re never going to go down a negative rumination path.

Speaker 1

Of course we are. And it’s that sense of every day we need to keep practicing these skills and they get stronger, but it might not ever be the top of the mountain. And that we feel that we’re completely confident and competent in ourselves that we’re never going to feel anxious again, because coming back to what we were saying at the beginning, anxiety is quite normal and it’s a survival function that we need in certain situations.

Speaker 1

And I know on the Zevo Health app, we’ve got the meditation section and a lot of people may use that every now and then if you’ve got access to that, I definitely recommend having a link in with that.

Speaker 1

But if you don’t have that, if you need that help to think around the grounding and how to slow your body down, there are great breathing apps out there that also do a similar thing. And Anxiety Island have some great resources as well.

Speaker 1

And HSC, if you’re thinking, are these symptoms that I’m feeling, are they anxiety? Have a little bit of research and definitely go and see your GP and talk it through. Or if it’s not the GP, it’s a friend, or if it’s not a friend, it’s a counselor, or if it’s not a counselor, you know, there’s the EAP that’s usually available from your employer, the employee assistance program.

Speaker 1

But you could just have that time just to have that introspection. Get out of your head what you may have been carrying in isolation and it keeps going round and round and round and speak it through and help unravel it with someone who’s not going to judge you, because we’re all trained in that way to listen non-judgmentally.

Speaker 1

And that process of counseling or psychotherapy is conducted in a way in such that you are the key person, you know yourself best, and your counselor or psychotherapist is going to be the facilitator, but they’ll never tell you that this is your problem, and this is what you need to do to be healthy and happy.

Speaker 1

It’s meeting you where you are and finding what would work for you, so you’re still very much in control, and you’re increasing your sense of empowerment and your agency to be able to find a way to look after yourself in these situations.

Speaker 1

And I think when you come at it from that perspective, it again takes the pressure off yourself to go, I’m going to be well. I’m going to take this medication and I’m going to be fine. You know, yes, it can help, but it’s the whole system and how we look after ourselves, what we do and what support we get and what our social network and support network is like and how all of those pieces fit together and how they help us to be well.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. It’s that regular check-in piece and that regular consideration that we’re human and that we will have bumps in the road. And it’s not about prevention of stress or prevention of anxiety.

Speaker 2

It’s about, okay, this might happen, but I will know what to do if and when it does, or I will be able to look after myself if and when it does. And that really can decrease the intensity of anxiety as well, because naturally enough, a tendency within anxiety is to want to be prepared for every kind of eventuality.

Speaker 2

That’s a lot of work, isn’t it? I’m even exhausted talking about it, but it’s the thing whereby if you focus more on that, okay, I’m human, I’m going to have difficulties. I can only look at where I am at right now, like we said earlier on, make now your starting point.

Speaker 2

And I can work within my own kind of parameters as to what I need to do for myself. My needs might change over time, and that’s fine. Just keeping that regular check-in. And yeah, you absolutely as well with that kind of piece around you being the expert in your own life and using support for guidance and for that facilitation piece as well.

Speaker 2

And it being a collaboration, working in the collective, when we’re thinking about that support network, it’s not dictating to somebody, or somebody dictating to you, do this, do that, don’t do that.

Speaker 2

It’s like, okay, how are we going to work together to make this a little bit easier, or to make more sense of it, or to process it, or whatever it is, that collaboration.

Speaker 3

Zevo Health is a fully integrated workplace wellbeing provider. We understand that the workplace is constantly changing and evolving, and that every company has different goals and characteristics. We create researched and strategic corporate wellbeing programmes based on the needs of your organisation.

Speaker 3

We have a broad range of services, available both online and on-site, that are designed to improve employees’ overall wellbeing and increase engagement within the workplace. We aim to create the healthiest workplaces across the globe to ensure that your most important asset, your employees, are energised and thriving.

Speaker 3

Contact us today to start your workplace wellbeing journey www.zevohealth.com

Speaker 1

So just to wrap up then, Anne, what would be the key takeaway message that you’d love listeners to leave with today?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, I guess a huge part of living through a situation like this and dealing with so many different emotional experiences and having to kind of contain all of that is that experience coupled with the kind of isolated part of it as well.

Speaker 2

And I think that a lot of people are being quite hard on themselves with regard to how they are coping and how they can cope and will cope going forward. So I think that it’s really important for people to get in touch with their resilience and to know that you might feel like some days the energy is low and that you aren’t necessarily able to manage what you’re faced with and that can change over time,

Speaker 2

but that’s naturally going to change. And overall, to look at the resilience that you’ve shown, having gotten through this time, everybody has their own kind of personal experiences and their own personal kind of impact, but just to know that this has been, we’re all well aware of the unprecedented circumstances phrase that’s been doing the rounds for the last 16 months, but really it has to be said that it is and you’ve done so much and you’ve gotten through so well that you need to take stock.

Speaker 2

There’s this phrase that I’m obsessed with in Gestalt Psychotherapy called the Fertile Void, where it’s the kind of interim period between what has gone past and what’s to come. And really, I think that we give ourselves so much pressure to get out of that adjustment phase, but if we can look at it as a fertile void and say, okay, let’s take stock of what’s happened, let’s open ourselves up to what’s to come and let’s also tap into that ability to meet those difficult situations and to really kind of loop that in with that self-compassion as well.

Speaker 2

If you are being very hard on yourself and you’re thinking that I’m not able to manage, that I’m not able to do this, you’re focusing on the negative, you need to have a kind of a wider context and give yourself the credit that you deserve.

Speaker 2

Give yourself a pat on the backs, my mother would say.

Speaker 1

Compacting myself, huh?

Speaker 2

pack both shoulders with both hands. What about yourself Davina? Would you have any kind of insights that would be important to flag?

Speaker 1

For me, I think the pregnant pause here, it’s such a huge, it’s such a significant time in everyone’s lives. We have a pandemic happening on top of all the normal everyday life stresses and strains that are occurring and there’s a huge amount of concern and care for everyone in your network and even people that you may not know, but it’s just that sense of we’ve all been pushed to survival mode and hopefully in time we’ll come back to this state of flourishing.

Speaker 1

There’s a huge amount of insecurity and uncertainty within the economical climate itself and of course that filters down into the individual. I know we’ve spoken so much today about that kindness, the self-compassion, managing your inner critic and I think for me the main thing is start each day as new and keep taking that step forward.

Speaker 1

Yes, some days you’re going to take a few steps backwards, but know that part of the process. Yeah and not to beat yourself up too much, not to berate yourself and put on that perfectionist hat and where you might be amazing and an expert in a field and you’re finding it really hard even just to get out of bed these days.

Speaker 1

Through the one-to-one support, the counseling support that we’re providing, people are struggling with just the basics. Now the good weather is really helping, but I think it is just that importance to say yeah be kind to yourself, take one step at a time, don’t shoot for the top of the mountain.

Speaker 1

As you were saying, keep your eye level. Step ahead. Yeah, one step at a time and if it doesn’t work out the way you anticipate it, well you know trial and error, we’ll go again and we’ll keep on going.

Speaker 1

So we’ve covered so much today. I hope it’s been useful to people who are listening and yeah just a huge thank you to yourself Ann. Pleasure. Yeah and we hope that it’s been helpful for people who are listening, just thinking about how to return, or how not even to return to post-op gun life.

Speaker 1

I think it’s about adjusting to this, to what’s happening now. We’re still in a state of flux where we may have more changes to come along so it’s just important to check in with yourself, see how you’re doing and understanding that it might be okay to feel a bit distressed at times based on what we’re currently living through.

Speaker 1

But thanks for listening everyone and tune in next time for another episode of Cevo Talks.