The relationship between wellbeing and productivity with Serkan Deveci

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Welcome back to Zevotalks, a podcast where I get to talk to risk takers, thought leaders and great people making change. I’m your host Aisling and on today’s episode we are continuing our exploration into the world of wellness and how it’s being implemented in Ireland.

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Today we are joined by Serkin Dveji and Richard Murphy. Serkin has been instrumental in implementing and tackling wellbeing in a multinational organisation. Richard is the CEO and founder of Ireland’s leading workplace wellbeing company, Seadle Health.

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you So thank you both for joining us today. Well, thank you for having me. Yeah, great to be here, Ashling. So over the past few years, wellbeing has become increasingly important for people, but also for companies.

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Why do you think it matters so much? I think wellbeing in corporate context, it isn’t just a trend that has sparked a few years ago. In fact, it began decades ago, and the focus back then was mainly on employee health and safety.

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However, over the years, it has evolved into a new definition. And now it includes a wide range of programs that enhances performance, as well as social, psychological, mental and emotional wellbeing of the employees.

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So while wellness is a portion of wellbeing, and that was what most companies were, and really, most of them are still focusing on, it isn’t the real full picture. In very simple words, wellbeing is defined as a state of optimal health, happiness and purpose.

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So if we think about this definition in the corporate context, those wellbeing programs should include innovative tools and mechanisms to support employees, financial wellness, mindfulness, healthy diet and exercise stress management, etc.

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And these efforts to be successful and have a real impact in the company, they have to be supported by leadership behaviours and the company culture. Now, quickly going back to your question, why does wellbeing matter so much?

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I think because we all want a good life, we all want a good health, and we all want to be the best version of ourselves. And there is nothing more natural than this. We all want to thrive. So just to throw a couple of quick data for you, in the United States they prescribe antidepressants at 400 times the rate than they did 20 years ago.

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Then in Ireland, one in six people suffer from depression and one in four have mental health issues. Then from a company point of view, a real focus on employee wellbeing can foster the collaboration, it can enhance the performance, it breaks down silos, reduces the absenteeism and its cost.

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As Lawrence Mitchell says, and I really like how he puts it, the focus on well-being, it can unlock the unrealized human potential that exists within every workplace. And that is, if you think about it, the basis of heightened performance and productivity for a company.

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Yeah, without a doubt, Serkin, I totally agree. I think when we see well-being programs, the reactive style programs came into play in around the 1950s in the form of the employee assistance programs.

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They took a jump into kind of more of the preventive style around the 1970s with a pharmaceutical company, whose goal is to reach to be the healthiest workplace globally. And we see it now in terms of the, you mentioned about kind of human potential and how we can unlock a true well-being.

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And it’s not only us both looking at the human potential within work, but throughout life as well. And if a workplace is able to provide and assist employees and making them as healthy as they can be, then that’s that’s probably the most powerful gift in a workplace can give to an employee.

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And on the back of that, then we look at the kind of the loyalty the employee can show the employer, because this is this is what’s coming into play as well. So there’s the like in employee well-being has been around for centuries, the thoughts of us and the thinking of us, but only over the last few decades have come more to the play.

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And now people are starting to be more innovative and proactive and in this kind of play as well and want to do the best for their employees. So yeah. Do you believe then that there’s a relationship between well-being and productivity of work?

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It’s a simple logic. First of all, people who feel well perform better than people who feel unwell. Feeling well I think is not just being physically healthy, it’s about having a purpose, enjoying what you do, having meaningful social relationships, and so performance is about commitment, determination and concentration.

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If you are feeling unwell or unhappy, you cannot focus on completing a task or a goal, so you are not performing effectively. Have there been any studies to prove this that could convince employers to embrace wellness within their companies?

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Derek Mobry says the link between wellbeing and performance is that people who feel well tend to feel in control of themselves, so then they are able to form attitudes that maintain the sensation of feeling well.

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And it is this attitude that determines the level of performance. Now there is this what our God is telling us about the link between productivity and wellbeing, but there is also evidence through many researchers showing the correlation between productivity and wellbeing.

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We know that higher employee wellbeing is associated with higher morale, which in turn leads to higher productivity. In a well-known research article published in Journal of Labour Economics in 2015, the academics show in a laboratory experiment that increases in wellbeing were strongly associated with increases in productivity of up to 12%.

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On another research across 142 countries, Gallup measured employee engagement. According to this, 13% of employees are engaged in their jobs. It’s really low. So the vast majority is not engaged. 63% are not engaged and 24% are actively disengaged.

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Active disengagement in the workplace, it has a huge loss or cost in terms of productivity and profitability. So in the same research, Gallup estimates, for example, that this costs Germany 112 billion to 138 billion euros per year.

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And for UK, this is between 52 billion pounds to 70 billion pounds per year. Perfect. And I suppose looking at kind of a piece of research that Zivo would have conducted over the last, we did a 12-month study in a workplace where we took three groups.

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We did three styles, two styles of intervention and one control group. In one of our interventions, we found over a 12-month period that all staff was retained in the workplace. No one left. There was more promotions within that workplace, within that group as well.

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And people were far more engaged. So wellbeing is extremely important in that side of engagement as well, in retaining and also when during that recruitment side of things as well, when you have good wellbeing.

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well-being benefits is far more important for a workplace that doesn’t. So in another study then conducted by Zero Health, we found that 85% of employees claim that both employers and employees play a role in employee health and well-being.

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So what are your thoughts on this and do you think that it is a two-sided effort? Fundamentally, employers have a legal responsibility. They have to provide relevant health and safety measures to their employees and it’s a basic but critical duty of care by the employer for their employees.

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It’s also, in my opinion, employers’ moral and ethical duty to protect employees from any physical or psychological harm. However, I think employee well-being is more than just legal or moral responsibilities.

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We already talked about it briefly and you found that in your help them. improve their well-being and health. And this is natural. Let’s think about it for a second, right? How many hours do you spend at workplace?

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A bit more. But that’s true. 40 plus hours a week, probably. And it doesn’t stop there. Most of us can’t even disengage from work after work hours, so we continue working at home. So the majority of people’s time is spent with work or in the workplace.

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Work and workplace then have an enormous impact on people’s lives to live healthy lives. From another perspective then, as I also said before, healthy people with high level of well-being are more engaged at work and they perform much better.

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So for productivity, it also makes business sense to help and support your employees to be in good health and to be in great well-being. Now when I say this, it’s not about interfering with people’s personal lives, but it’s more about giving them access to services and tools to help them look after themselves and from there on enhance their well-being.

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You really cannot force people to take care of themselves, but you can give them the tools to do that. So it is a two-sided effort, in my opinion, yes. And it requires dual responsibility, both from the employer and from the employee.

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But ultimately, I think it’s individuals’ responsibility to really own their own well-being. If it’s a legal requirement for a company to provide the health and safety factor, does that mean then they’re taking it one step further, kind of with wellness programs, that that’s seen as a benefit then?

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Or is it, would that be included within the health and safety? You touch off good pie dashing in terms of health and safety. Like if you look at, say, Disability Act 1988, then the employer has to act if an employee is going through any mental…

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health definitely has to be an act there but in terms of health and safety I think there has been a lot of investment in from employers in safety, not more health and safety when we look at certain industries out there that if their safety standards safety policies are up to scratch then that’s okay and maybe the health can maybe take second fiddle to that but now we’re looking at kind of a shift where they’re seen as comparison and and on the same line as well because I was at a talk there recently and everyone talks say when for instance the construction industry and obviously construction industry safety is extremely important and when you think about health and safety you don’t think about mental health really you think about the more the physical is if the structures in place or if the scaffolding up the requirements as everything says standards on the construction site however people may not come to the fore and talk about their mental health their physical health but now that kind of side of things is becoming more aligned in certainly in that industry and other industries that we see as well.

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So yeah, as I suppose health and safety needs to be seen on the same kind of level when talking about workplaces. I guess because I wouldn’t know a lot of offices you’d have to do a manual handling course and it’s a requirement and you can’t lift boxes until you do this course kind of thing, whereas maybe it’s not so enforced to go to a workshop or a talk that’s riding wellness around a hut or something.

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Yeah definitely a good point as well and we see but I suppose in saying that as well we can’t make things mandatory for employees either. If they don’t want to go to a mental health talk or if they don’t want to go to a certain activity we can’t make them go either.

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But if there’s policies and mental health charters and policies put in place then it makes kind of clear transparency from the employee from the start is kind of this is what we value and this is what we think is really important.

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So I believe it’d be your own best interest to kind of go along to this kind of side of things as well. So what is the role then of an employer for workplace well-being? I think this is very much linked to your previous question as well.

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So I suppose well-being is more than just free gym membership and fruit balls. Work environment and the workplace culture have a huge impact on well-being and then leaders of the company have a vital role to play in defining this.

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In my opinion leaders have four fundamental roles they should play to increase workplace well-being without necessarily forcing people to take care of themselves right and these roles are still in the context of dual responsibility that we discussed.

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So leaders role regarding employees well-being is empower, provide, care and role model. First the lead A leadership team in a company plays a critical role in creating an environment that empowers their people to manage their own well-being.

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This isn’t about pressuring well-being efforts, as I said, rather advocating the importance of a life well-lived and empower employees to enhance their well-being. Second, the company should provide support mechanisms and tools to create a resilient workplace that you can able to cope with demanding work environment.

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This can be done by putting in place the management processes, business environment and leadership skills to identify and reduce workplace stress and then from there on increase the well-being. Then third, as we said, is to show that you care, that you really care.

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The company, the leaders of the organization, genuinely and authentically care about their employees’ well-being. That’s really very important. You have to demonstrate commitment to bettering people’s holistic lives.

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from a perspective of, you know, purpose, social, community, physical well-being. And then the fourth one is really role modeling it. Authentically display and share your personal well-being practices.

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Now, as Gallup finds in their workplace research, employees take cues from their managers, and they are more likely to take ownership of their well-being when their managers exemplify a life well-lived.

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For this reason, managers should model well-being to encourage employee participation. A compelling data to share from the same research, when a manager is thriving in well-being, their direct reports are 15% more likely to be thriving in well-being six months later.

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But role modeling, in fact, it doesn’t require achieving world-class well-being, right? It is rather managers should authentically display and share their personal well-being practices. And I think what is really very important is that all this has to be underpinned by consistent and continuous messaging.

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So the communication is really very important. I suppose from my end, I am an employer as well as of 2017 members and looking at them points there, I suppose putting myself in my shoes we look at role model and I think I suppose I do enjoy exercise, I do enjoy kind of investing in my own mental well-being and even for myself to show vulnerability around, like, for instance, I would go see a counsellor every couple of times a month,

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which I think I’m I’m proud of. I think it’s a sign of strength and I don’t mind saying that to my team members. It’s on the podcast now for everyone to hear that, but it’s I don’t mind that because why not?

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I don’t struggle, have mental health struggles, I don’t believe, but it’s always good to talk and good to open up to the people as well. So from that end, I think role modelling is important. I do get out sometimes try go swimming next door in the gym or go to gym myself and, and try to bring that in into the staff as well.

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For instance, we Ashting who’s our podcast host along with one of our colleagues Sarah would have just done the kind of a wellness survey and we’re trying to get that up and running more on a consistent basis within within Zevo ourselves.

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The other thing too, and we touched off a few times, is to create that environment. I think ourselves we focus on three different teams this year and which is around education, around flexibility, and also around community within Zevo.

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So we brought in certain things there that hopefully can pronounce. them kind of three core areas. And I think most important is around community and and the culture of a workplace, which is extremely important to get right from the off.

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Culture always beats strategy for breakfast. I’ve said that a few times and probably team members are sick of listening to that. A few of them definitely are. They’ve said it to me. But but it’s true.

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So getting the right type of team members in that, yes, it’s it’s work, but you have to have a bit of fun as well. And at the end of the day, and I said this in the podcast a few months ago, but it’s only work, you know, you have to live life as well.

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You’re in you’re in work for 40 hours a week or some of us a little bit more. But it’s it’s you know, it’s not hasn’t been most shouldn’t be the most important thing in your in your life. And and saying that as an employers, I think employers have to kind of say that as well, you know, so and show that vulnerability is, is very important and and well being said is an optimal stay of health, both both in mentally and physically.

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And if you’re going into your if you’re going into your office and and and just too many days where you don’t want to go in or you’re kind of your role in your eyes going in the morning, I have to face this today and that’s not a great place to be and that has an effect on your health.

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So that’s why I suppose that culture that role modeling and parent people providing with the right tools, and also being very vulnerable as a as a well, not very vulnerable, but open with as a leader and employer as well to make sure people are safe.

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And they’re trusted when they within the organization, and they feel like they’re having a bit of fun along the way as well. So yeah. Following off from that, then why isn’t offering health insurance and an EAP enough?

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Well being is, I think not an issue unique to just a couple of companies nowadays, it is a societal issue. So insecure high performers, capitalism increasing and hence the the unsafety of jobs, overexposure to social media every day and ever-increasing demands at workplace and in social life, so many things in the equation that are impacting our well-being in fact.

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We have to note here that basically well-being is not the same thing as wellness. In my opinion, wellness is focusing on our physical health after all. But well-being is more than that. It is about muscles, brain, heart and soul.

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So well-being is physical, spiritual, emotional, psychological and altogether it has an impact on how we live our lives and how we drive our business and get business results. So a basic but fundamentally important benefit like health insurance or employee assistance program will not on their own have a positive impact on one’s well-being.

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Companies, I think, need to have a holistic approach and strategy to provide a robust suite of well-being program that focuses on physical, spiritual, emotional, financial and psychological health of their employees.

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And more importantly, this has to be embedded in the culture of the company. We can see that the workplace is changing and that new generations are entering and older generations are leaving later. So how do you think companies can handle this to maximize their people?

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Yeah. So today, workplaces are made up of five generations. Millennials now make up more than half of the workforce in many countries. And the first truly digital natives who are the generations that they have entered the workforce.

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Now we have five generations with diverse demands and different levels of engagement. So in this context, companies need to communicate effectively to manage these multiple employee needs and expectations.

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You probably read this before in many articles and researches. So millennials challenge the traditional top-down structure of companies. They want more collaboration. They crave feedback because they’re used to receiving it constantly.

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They want value. And we know from the well-being perspective, the younger generations that workplace like millennials and generations that they spend almost twice as much on self-care as baby boomers do.

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This has had an impact on the increase of development and consumption of online apps, digital apps like mindfulness, online coaching, well-being programs. And these are all available for companies to use now.

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It’s also critical for companies to understand and to know their new workforce. Millennials have many ideas and they have to be listened to. Their parents shape their lives around these kids. So to be kept motivated they need to get what they are used to and that is being listened to and not to be ignored.

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So have continuous conversation with them. and be really open to learn from them. According to the future workplace research, nearly 40% of millennials, they say that they are stressed and that this negatively impacts their performance at workplace.

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Companies need to help this young workforce to manage stress. One simple, but often I think misunderstood tool is workplace flexibility, like flexible working time, longer lunch breaks, more vacation days.

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They’re really very important. Finally, millennials are tech-savvy. They have the ability to communicate without actually talking to a person. So they also place a high value on harmony. They enjoy workplaces and relationships that are harmonious in nature.

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But then all this comes with a cost. Because millennials, according to the same future workplace study, they feel unprepared and unequipped to solve conflict, to negotiate or to work with older people.

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Companies, though, they can help them learn to agree to disagree. Millennials value a fast career progression. However, they are not prepared to manage others. So companies should help them develop the skills such as managing conflict, navigating policies, influencing executive presence or communicating articulately.

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I agree with them. I would be a millennial and I would barely make a phone call. So I could have a whole conversation without ever picking up a phone and actually talking to someone. I find that funny.

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It’s very true. Yeah, it’s straight into an email or a text. Yeah. No, I think, like, I suppose in Z1, trying to think of, like, we are all young enough and probably in most of us are that millennial kind of side of things as well.

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Yeah, no, it’s definitely interesting to see as well. Like, we go into some workplaces who are far more conservative or not far more conservative, but they’re probably there for generations and people with 25 years, 30 years experience.

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And you see they’re just even the wellness side of it like they want. Like health screening is really important because it’s your one to one with a person or people coming in to deliver workshops or trainings or long programs.

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You’re there again in a one to one environment where you look at the younger generation then are looking at like more mobile application based kind of interventions or programs or unification style things as well.

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So and then you can see what kind of the way people are motivated more either extrinsically motivated or intrinsically motivated. So you adopt kind of wellness programs to suit them kind of in That kind of area as well.

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So and and I think I think I think HR departments who are working with five different generations in the workplace too is it there’s a big learning from them for them as well, you know and and Probably no one have all the answers of how to really fully engage the full spectrum of a of a of a workplace But it’s it’s definitely a work in progress Because they’d have different needs to cater to with every generation and I guess that the an older generation wouldn’t necessarily Have first-hand knowledge of what wellness is or well-being is whereas the younger generation kind of already know what self-care is They know about it.

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They’ve heard about it So, how do you both then look after your own well-being? Right good question So I think I was actually thinking about it and you might have the thought that you know This guy knows a lot about well-being hits gym frequently and eat only healthy foods, do meditation, meditation and stuff.

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So he has to be looking after his well being super good. Well, in fact, I think I am below average. Do you know about GI Joe fallacy? No. So it’s an interesting actually phenomenon. It’s that because you just know a stuff, you are good at it.

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Actually, it isn’t true. And this is explained in literature by something funny called GI Joe fallacy. So in 1980s, there was this super famous weekly show for kids and on American TV. So every week at the end of the show, there was this public announcement for kids, you know, something like don’t talk to strangers or look both ways when crossing the road, etc.

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And then a kid in this public announcement says, Thank you, GI Joe. Now I know. Then GI Joe appears to say, knowing is half the bottle. So in her famous science of well being lecture at Yale University, Professor Laurie Santos calls this the fallacy.

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It’s this mistaken idea that knowing is half the bottle. So merely knowing something is actually not enough to put into practice or to really change your behaviors or to adopt new habits. I think you have to be committed to increase your own happiness and your well being.

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There are many techniques and ways to do it. I have chosen those that really just work for me and I’m determined to apply them, use them really day to day. As simple as I don’t eat sugar, or I have a desk job and I don’t use elevators and push myself to it 100,000 steps a week on average.

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I go to gym on the same day at the same hour every week and I don’t tolerate any clashes, although I have a very demanding job and a kid. I also practice mental skill techniques that I know really helped me, such as meditation, positive thinking, resetting your reference points, savouring and gratitude.

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They are easier said than done but once they become a habit then they are a normal part of your daily life and that I think requires commitment and determination. From myself, I tried to go to the gym two or three times a week.

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I think after three days of not exercising I would find myself building up in anxiety, so whether that’s the gym and just doing various kind of chin-ups, press-ups and that kind of side of things. The mental health side of things, I would go to a mindfulness class once or twice a month and try practice it myself on a kind of by daily, every second day basis.

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Obviously eating well, I don’t think I’m like you certain where I cut out sugar, I don’t think I could ever cut out sugar. Chocolate is my downfall but after everything in moderation maybe as well. Go for it.

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Yeah, we’ll get there. We’ll get there. But I think from even a workplace, you mentioned a couple of things circling about it’s half the battle is knowing and the other half is actually doing. You look at kind of workplaces and you see kind of four different categories where you have people that like they’re very intrinsically motivated to do things to really feel good and they don’t need any push.

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They’re out running and walking and eating healthier and they don’t need a whole push in terms of do things really really to make themselves feel better. Then you have the kind of more of the, you call them the motivated movers, maybe more family orientated.

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They’re kind of hence kind of work workouts in the gym. Then you have the concerned change makers where they know things are good. They just can’t find a line. And then you have the idol aviders who don’t want to know anything about us, anything about wellbeing.

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So it’s kind of knowing what kind of category you might fit into and how do you get to the category above that as well. And the first step is awareness of where you are actually on the spectrum is and what kind of small little habits you can pull in are like I suppose introduced into your life in terms of wellbeing as well.

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So yeah. Thank you for listening to another episode of Ziva Talks. We would like to thank Serkin and Richard for joining us today. Perfect. Cheers Ashling. Thank you, Ashling. Both are setting great examples and leading the way within corporate wellness.

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And as Serkin told us, people who feel well perform better than people who feel unwell. Thanks so much for tuning in until next time. you