Inside the Role: What It Means to Be a Wellbeing Expert in Content Moderation

Inside the Role_ What It Means to Be a Wellbeing Expert in Content Moderation

⏰Mon, 11/25 15:58PM · 37mins

Transcript

Speaker 1

Welcome back everybody to Zevotalks. I am Dr. Michelle Tio, clinical director for Zevo Health and your host for the podcast. And today I am delighted to be joined by Anne Gleason, who is a psychological wellbeing practitioner with Zevo Health, who delivers services for content moderators directly.

Speaker 1

And we’re getting the opportunity today to chat about her work as a wellbeing provider working with content moderators. So Anne, you are very welcome.

Speaker 2

Thank you so much, Michelle. Glad to be here.

Speaker 1

Lovely. So just for our listeners, maybe if you want to give them just a general sort of understanding of what your background is and maybe how you got into the trust and safety space.

Speaker 2

Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, I kind of I took a detour career-wise when it came to all things psychology and psychotherapy because I Initially when I left school and went to college I didn’t get enough points to do psychology was always something that I had an interest in so I my detour involved doing 13 years in radio as you do so it took a kind of a different form I suppose but I Learned a lot.

Speaker 2

I had great fun and I had great experiences, but all the while I was kind of thinking okay once I Feel like I have a permanent job or I feel pretty secure Money-wise and and and future wise and all that kind of stuff I’m gonna go back and do something and go into it and there was always this kind of idea in the back of my head about engaging in psychology and to furthermore like I always had an idea about doing Psychotherapy,

Speaker 2

although like in my 20s 30s, I didn’t I didn’t know what it was essentially well more 20s I suppose but Sitting talking to people and and working through things with people was where I wanted to kind of be at so I started studying part-time and then between the jigs and the reels I I left I took redundancy from today FM and It just so happened to coincide with the start of my master’s so I would have done like part-time degree HTIP master’s so this was kind of just the final hurdle I suppose so I kind of put my all into it and When I had left college when I finished up pretty much Soon after I’d finished up I started with Zevo helped so I was very lucky in that sense,

Speaker 2

so I started off driving around the place and giving sessions and workshops and talks for people and then I was lucky enough a couple of months into it to somehow make A good impression. So I was called in to have a conversation about engaging in the trust and safety Industry, so I thought okay.

Speaker 2

I don’t know a huge amount about this, but it’s something that is interesting to me and it’s intriguing and I’d like to have the experience of engaging in that work from a well-being perspective. So that was Let’s say cast your mind back to December 2019 if you can imagine in my own mind That’s like a year ago, but it’s like what five years ago now something like that nearly five four or five Whatever,

Speaker 2

but yeah, that was around the time that I started working with content moderators and working in the trust and safety field so then as I kind of got my my hooks into that I I furthered my furthered. Is that a word?

Speaker 2

Let’s go with it. I furthered my experience and my insights and my knowledge by working with more client companies and A deepening that that kind of knowledge of what it means to be in the well-being space in that Area and it is a very specific area and a very unique area as well So I’ve kind of been doing that across the board Since then, you know, so At the same time it’s it’s a long time.

Speaker 2

It’s a good few years like but Every day is different as well. So there’s there’s lots of different experiences that I’m Lucky to be a part of I feel privileged to meet lots of different people and to yeah over like Across the board to be a person who is is providing these spaces for people, you know So yeah, and on it goes, you know, so I’m still there and I’m still I’m still working away So did you want a long version or the short version by the way because you just got the love

Speaker 1

a good, it’s a good background for our listeners. You know, it’s, it’s, I suppose, very typical of people working in the industry and the trust and safety industry that it’s a sort of non-traditional route into it.

Speaker 1

Like nobody I think really goes through like training in psychology and then decides they want to work in trust and safety somehow they just kind of fall into it. Because the opportunity presents itself, right?

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1

Yeah so I wonder even just like you spoke to it a little bit there but could you give our listeners maybe more insight into like what you really love about working in trust and safety.

Speaker 2

Yeah, first and foremost, I love the people that I work with. I have the pleasure of working with, like, lots of different people from around the world, lots of different personalities, lots of different ways of engaging in the wellbeing space as well.

Speaker 2

So, like, do you know what it is? Like, I admire the people that work in content moderation because it’s not an easy job, it’s a very unique job as well because there’s so many different moving parts to it in the sense that you need to be both proactive in how you approach the work and you have to be reactive as well.

Speaker 2

So, you know, if people are engaging in that work, it does take a lot and it is a very, what would you say? Like, there’s a need for focus within the course of their working day, let’s say, there’s an intensity to it.

Speaker 2

Naturally, there is that exposure to potentially, like, graphic and distressing and disturbing content, and yet these people show up all the time and I would hear it from a lot of people that they’re, like, when we talk about purpose, when we talk about what’s at the core of why you do what you do, it’s to make a difference and it’s to be able to provide something, you know, and like, from a therapeutic point of view,

Speaker 2

to be able to provide and to find meaning and to find purpose is such an important part of anyone’s life, you know, and for them to easily access that in the spaces that we work together. I think it’s really admirable to step up and do really tough work and to do it consistently and also to, you know, smile and joke with pals in the canteens and kitchens and also to allow themselves to be open and vulnerable with me in wellbeing settings and stuff like that.

Speaker 2

So really, there’s a lot of admiration for people that engage in the work and what I see as well with people is that there’s a lot of passion as well. I would work with people that it’s their drive, like, as soon as they start their shift, they’re engaged, you know, and there’s a real, it’s a real drive and it’s a real kind of tunnel vision to what they need to do and why they’re doing what they do.

Speaker 2

So, like, I, I’m just a kind of a part of the bigger system, a part of the bigger machine, but if I can provide even the tiny little space for somebody to speak about their experiences or to find distraction or to, you know, connect and build that wellbeing relationship, I’m so, so happy to do it, you know.

Speaker 2

So it is a lovely environment to be in, to see all of these people and to see them, you know, engaging in this work, in this tough work, and also, like, also focusing on different aspects of who they are as well and letting themselves be open and shine and connect and all those, those good things as well, you know.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and I think there’s a sort of like the general population sort of views content moderation as just like a kind of machine. You know, they don’t see it as a very kind of human endeavor. But at the end of the day, if you think about the work of content moderators do, like you’ve got a human who is sitting behind a screen, but in some way they’re interacting with another human like a user who has violated a policy or a user who has been impacted by someone violating policy,

Speaker 1

right? And so there’s a very kind of like human element to content moderation that I think sometimes gets missed. And then when you think about the content moderators who are sitting behind the screen, they really like you say care about the job, they’re passionate about it, they really want to make sure that the platform community is really safe, and that people are having very positive online experiences through the work that they are doing.

Speaker 1

And so I think sometimes I get lost, you know, that human element of content moderation, it’s not just all algorithms, there are people sitting back there.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. And you know what, I think that because, relatively speaking, like the internet, I am of a vintage where I have spent half my life with no internet, just running around fields randomly, chasing after cows and stuff like that.

Speaker 2

But like the internet, if we think on a wider context and social media and the need to protect and to filter and to safeguard and all that kind of stuff, like that in the greater picture is relatively a new thing.

Speaker 2

So it’s understandable like that people will just imagine like it being a chatbot or like more robot in the background. So I think the awareness around this is something that’s hopefully on the rise and that there is an awareness and an acknowledgement that people are engaging in this for specific reasons.

Speaker 2

And also that it’s work that is very challenging as well. And I can imagine as well that the more awareness there is around this, that would you say like that benefit the doubt or that reflection on it being a human person that is behind the screen that’s engaging.

Speaker 2

And that is like, if you were to break it down, like taking the hate essentially on behalf of so many other people that thankfully will not be exposed to certain things that are, you know, disturbing or will affect them in a negative way.

Speaker 2

So there’s lots happening behind the scenes. There really is. And all you need to do is to be on site, let’s say where people are engaging in the work. And it’s so busy, you can feel the energy in the air and it’s just constant as well.

Speaker 2

So it takes a lot of effort, it takes a lot of energy to keep that moving as well. It doesn’t just come from nowhere like.

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. And so you referenced it a couple of times now, you know, that it’s a tough job. There’s a lot of moving parts and that, you know, content moderators are sort of taking the hit for other people, right?

Speaker 1

So what are maybe some of the most like common presenting issues or difficulties that content moderators come to you with?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, like, it can be varied because of the fact that not only are they engaging in this very detailed, this very challenging work, but they’re also a whole being outside of it as well and we can’t park elements of ourselves much as we would like to at times, of course.

Speaker 2

Of course. You know, it’s all part of the package, so it’s all coming. So everybody that shows up on the day or the night or whatever is bringing all of these different parts. So it can vary, like, if we’re thinking about a content perspective, you know, it might be a case that somebody has reached a point where they may be, like, straw that broke the camel’s back kind of a mentality.

Speaker 2

So maybe they’ve been going great for a while and it’s just that they have all the roads are crossed where maybe their energy is low, maybe their mood is low, maybe there’s something going on in their personal life, and then maybe something might come up that might trigger them.

Speaker 2

So it’s always about context within that. And that’s the way I would work therapeutically as well, is to look at the context of the situation and to also provide ourselves with that element of perspective given the situation.

Speaker 2

So it might come as that. So that’s where we start, you know, to work through what’s happened in the moment. So it might be something that has affected them because of this content and it might be something that’s affected them because of the nature of the content itself.

Speaker 2

You know, it can happen. We can’t kind of avoid that and pretend everything is fine. But we are realistic and the more realistic we are, the more rational and the more compassionate we are with ourselves.

Speaker 2

I’m talking about the content moderator in that space, but also us as well being specialists to be able to engage in that space as well, to look at all the parts without, you know, leaning towards toxic positivity, any of that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2

So that can be something that can come about. Sometimes it can be personal stuff as well. And oftentimes it can be within that work collective. So perhaps that has an element to it as well, where there’s something that’s happening, where they’re feeling that they’re engaged in a kind of a challenging task or whatever.

Speaker 2

All the moving parts within themselves are operating so that they’re feeling kind of overwhelmed. And, you know, whatever it is, it’s important that there’s space for it to show up. So anything that can come about, this is why it’s so important for people like myself to have a knowledge of the lived experience of somebody that’s engaging in this work from day to day.

Speaker 2

So you need to be coming at it where you have a kind of a, what would you say? Like you’ve gone through a few chapters of the book without having to get someone to explain to you what a content moderator is, what their workload is like, what their daily experience is like, because we need to just kind of get to the nuts and bolts of it.

Speaker 2

You know, so again, a long story short, or a short story long rather, it can be lots of different things. But I think that if you’re if you’re coming at it from that specific perspective that, you know, all of these things are happening within the lived experience of a content moderator.

Speaker 2

So we factor that in. So that is our kind of lens or that’s our perspective that we need to be looking at things through so that we can really like leave all space for detail that comes with that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it’s it’s very similar to how I would feel when I think about the work that I’ve done with content moderators, it could be anything really that they’re coming to us with.

Speaker 1

And I think there’s there’s sometimes a little bit of like an overemphasis on the exposure to content and how that in particular is going to impact moderator psychological health. But in fact, like you’re saying it’s it’s their lived experience.

Speaker 1

It’s them as a human being. It’s their entire kind of ecosystem around them that can, you know, turn into like a trigger or it could be like all of the background and the context behind it. And then all of a sudden, there’s one particular trigger, right?

Speaker 1

So yeah, I think it’s it’s challenging to kind of have that balance where you want to emphasize the importance that like exposure content can absolutely impact an individual. But at the same time, it’s not necessarily going to be content specifically that’s going to impact you.

Speaker 1

It could be your relationship with your team leader, which is like, you know, a reminiscent of a dynamic that you had with like a parent. Sure. Yeah. Or it could be like how you’re interacting with like the tool that you were operating off of, and it’s just not working for you.

Speaker 1

And so you’re starting to get frustrated that you don’t have the right tools to kind of do the work that you want to do really, really well. So I think it’s that that kind of balance of like, yes, content is absolutely impacting people, and it can impact people.

Speaker 1

But there’s all these other kinds of experiences that we have to consider as well when we’re thinking about the human being who’s sitting there doing this work. Of course.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. And like you make a great point in the sense of finding that balance between the necessity of constantly acknowledging that this is the kind of another sounds very simplistic, but like this is the work that is done and that is being done repeatedly over extended periods, periods of time, day in day out, and other parts of life and the person’s story can and should come into that space because it’s all valid.

Speaker 2

And like you make a point around having a particular dynamic with a team leader, let’s say, and that’s reminiscent of parental dynamic or something like that. Again, when there is that acknowledgement that there is connections between all of these different parts, you know, you could be engaging with some content that is affecting you negatively because your own lived experience, you know, because everybody’s lived experience is unique and individual to them.

Speaker 2

And everybody’s, you know, let’s say potential experiences of trauma will impact them in different ways. So to make space for all parts and to allow all parts to come up. So we’re not trying to focus on one part over the other.

Speaker 2

We’re saying that it’s all important and it’s all and it’s also important for a person to know that they can bring in everything and anything because you know, I’ve met people before that would say, am I allowed to talk about this, you know, because it’s not strictly work related.

Speaker 2

And I’d be like, of course, like you can talk about anything in here because yeah, like it’s all leading to you as a person in here, like in this place, doing what you’re doing. So all of these things, like they’re all being gathered up and they’re all leading to how you are navigating your current world today.

Speaker 2

And that’s why it’s so important to let it all be there.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it’s I think like if we think about the kind of general population, you might think about a situation where like someone’s gone to the bank in the morning and they’ve had to wait in like a very long line, and they’re getting frustrated, they’re going to be late for work, and then they show up to work, and they’re quite agitated, or they’re quite frustrated.

Speaker 1

And it’s that type of situation that we have to think about for content moderators too. It could be anything during their day. It could be any experience that they’ve had like recently or like way back in the past that can come into the workspace and impact things like their productivity and their accuracy and how they engage with like their colleagues and their team leaders and like anyone else that they are dealing with on a day-to-day basis.

Speaker 1

So like you’re saying it all has to be brought into the space and allowed to kind of be brought into the space.

Speaker 2

Totally, totally. And another thing would be that we will all express ourselves, or not as the case may be, in different ways. So, you know, some of us might have many years, let’s say, engaging in therapy.

Speaker 2

So we might have that therapeutic language. Some of us might come from different collectives in our lives where we speak openly and honestly about our emotions and our thoughts. Other people just don’t know how to navigate that because they haven’t had the experience for lots of different reasons.

Speaker 2

So, you know, to leave space for not taking it personally, if you’re talking about colleagues showing up in particular ways, and you know, to let people express themselves and to use wellbeing spaces in the way that is most fitting for them because they’re experts by way of experience.

Speaker 2

This is the thing. So that would be the kind of like the most mindful perspective. It’s the perspective from trauma-informed care as well. So to be able to trust somebody to know what’s good for them and what’s right for them because they know themselves best.

Speaker 1

Our approach is holistic, providing services to the organization, the wider trust and safety team, and individual content moderators. From one-to-one digital and in-person therapy to crisis management and group interventions, we ensure every step of the moderator’s career journey is supported.

Speaker 1

But Zevo’s impact stretches beyond individual care. We provide comprehensive organizational solutions, aligning with regulatory demands for compliance assurance, enhancing operational efficiency for performance optimization, and proactively supporting brand integrity.

Speaker 1

We want to ensure that content moderators across diverse industries, from social media platforms to streaming services to gaming, are flourishing. Discover our solutions today. Dive into our world of proactive wellbeing solutions.

Speaker 1

Visit zevohealth.com or click the link in this podcast description and join us in leading a new era of content moderator wellbeing. So I wonder, from all of the experience that you’ve had, maybe over the last four and a half, five years, working with various different content moderators who work for different companies, but then also who are working on various different kind of abuse areas, is there anything that you could think of in terms of what the industry needs to do better for content moderators?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Where to start? I think like, first things first, I think that there is something, this might sound a little bit silly, right? And I kind of alluded to it earlier on, but to make sure that all people involved in this space, keep that regular check in that this is the kind of work that people are doing.

Speaker 2

And to go into the finer detail about that, you know, that when there are people engaged in this work, they may not know what they’re going to see next. They might be under pressure with targets, so they might be flying through tickets very quickly.

Speaker 2

They might, you know, have particular dynamics with people because, you know, when we think about group dynamics, sometimes they work out well and everything goes smoothly, sometimes they don’t. So to bear in mind the really kind of foundations of this work, because you know yourself, like things are busy, people are under pressure, you know, they have expectations from those around them.

Speaker 2

So the core of what is happening and the potential impact of that, I think sometimes can get lost in the melee of the whole thing because of the fact that stress and pressure take over. And like, that’s the nature of any situation when there is that stress and pressure and hurry is that you’re go, go, go, and you don’t have an opportunity to reflect on, okay, this is what I’m doing, this is the nature of my work,

Speaker 2

this is how it goes, this is the sequence of my lived experience, this is the impact of it. And especially those people who aren’t, let’s say, on the ground as such, I’m using my air quotes here, but like, to make sure that everybody is well versed in it, and to make sure that everybody has a deep understanding of it, and of the basics of it.

Speaker 2

And I think that you might think, well, of course they do, you know, but I think that people will be in different areas, so they might not be in the day to day, so to have that regular check in, where people are really mindful of that.

Speaker 2

And, you know, I think that there’s something as well around listening to people, I think there’s something around not getting to a point where, like, unrealistic expectations aren’t normalised, or there’s a space where you don’t necessarily feel very comfortable to speak openly, to speak about concerns, you know, that kind of basic psychological safety within it.

Speaker 2

And like, to keep a communication space open, to keep it transparent, and to keep it consistent, as well. And to look at it from a collaborative point of view, so that, you know, I think that within structures, like across the board, when we’re talking about organisational structures, there tends to be hierarchies and stuff like that.

Speaker 2

But I think if everybody can engage in that collaborative perspective, it is something where people will feel more safe to speak openly about what their experience is, and then there’s more, people can be more resourceful, because they’ll be equipped with the knowledge, you know.

Speaker 2

So communication is key across the board, you know, not just, like, romantic relationships and the like, or families or communities or whatever, but particularly within this space, because of the detail, because of the nature of the intensity of the work.

Speaker 2

And because everybody is showing up as an individual complex human being, so that there is that space for understanding, that is, that space to feel heard, and to feel validated, as well. So there will be that comfort and that security from that.

Speaker 1

I think the industry has recognized over the last year and a half, two years, probably even longer than that, that we’ve historically really worked in silos. A policy team might not really speak to content moderators or if you’re an outsourcing company, how much contact do you have with your end client and people who are very senior in those roles who are developing the policy, choosing the tools that the moderators are going to use.

Speaker 1

And then even across different industries within Trust and Safety, does a tooling company get the chance to actually talk to moderators about the tool and whether it’s effective for them, whether it’s being used in the way that they intend it to be used, whether it’s helpful to them.

Speaker 1

So that recognition in the industry, I think, has really, really been beneficial because we’re talking a lot more to each other cross-functionally, cross-industry. And we’re having a lot more of these conversations where we’re saying that collaborative effort is needed.

Speaker 1

We need to hear the voices of the content moderators. We need to hear the voices of the users. We need to hear the voices of regulators and researchers and civil society. And organizations, I guess, like the TSPA, are really great at doing that when they bring people across the industry together.

Speaker 1

So I think definitely we’re moving in the right direction. Sometimes I think content moderators might feel a bit worried about speaking with other people, particularly like they sign NDAs and things like that.

Speaker 1

So naturally, they would be worried. But I think there are definitely avenues where information can be anonymized. And we can keep certain data confidential so that people aren’t at risk of losing their jobs or aren’t concerned even at that level.

Speaker 1

And particularly, I think, in the research space, we’re really good at doing that where we can speak to moderators and we can guarantee that their data is going to be anonymized and that nobody’s ever going to find out that they worked with us.

Speaker 1

And I think that’s just really what the industry needs is people to hear the moderators, to understand that lived experience, to know what works and what doesn’t work for them, where all of the pain points are.

Speaker 1

And then we can start thinking about solutions. But if we don’t know what the pain points are, we’re never going to come to the right solutions for them.

Speaker 2

Yeah, of course. I mean, what a gift to have that information and what a gift to receive it without it being, let’s say, modified or filtered to look good or sound good or to be the answer that they think they might need to provide or the answer that they think is wanted or whatever.

Speaker 2

It’s authentic, it’s realistic, and that’s the gift in itself to be able to keep moving without breaking a step, to keep moving forward and using that without it affecting other parts that don’t need to be affected.

Speaker 2

It’s so useful.

Speaker 1

Amazing. So, last question for you. What is something that people might not know about what it’s like to be a service provider to content moderators?

Speaker 2

Wow, you’ve stumped me now. Do you know what? I think that it’s an experience where you actually laugh a lot. That might sound a bit strange but you have an opportunity to be in a space with people to help them to provide that well-being and you are in spaces that are very intense, very tough and have an impact on you as well.

Speaker 2

That’s all part of the job and at the same time you have really funny moments as well. I meet so many different people and I have been in situations where I’ve been snorting, laughing. I’ve been howling, laughing in settings or in sessions or whatever and it’s an important part of the work overall.

Speaker 2

I think for me the way that I would view my work as a therapist, it’s so important to have that and I think that that might be a surprise because of the nature of the work itself and because it’s so important and it’s so intense and tough but there are situations where you do have a great laugh and you find yourself learning a lot as well about other people’s lived experience, about other people’s ways of viewing the world and that comes from developing those therapeutic relationships with the content moderators as well as your own team as well because you get to meet a bunch of great people and my team are great like yourself included of course and it’s a joy to have that and it’s a part of the work that I truly am grateful for.

Speaker 2

I think maybe when I was leaving college and stuff like that I thought that I had to be a very serious psychotherapist and everything needed to be stroking my metaphorical beard. I swear it’s metaphorical but I’m in my forties now, what do you expect?

Speaker 2

I thought that that was how it was meant to be but I think as I’m kind of shaking that stereotypical version of like how I engage in my work in various spaces is such a lovely thing because I don’t know if you know this about me Michelle but I do like to have the odd laugh now and then you do love a good laugh, commit to the bit but you know and that’s who I am so I can engage my authentic self within that space and I do luckily I do have that opportunity to just have a smile and have a laugh with those wonderful people that I work with and then continue.

Speaker 1

I totally, totally agree with you. You know, there, I think you’re right. There’s this sort of expectation that these environments are very serious and everyone’s very intensely working. Nobody’s really talking to each other.

Speaker 1

But at the end of the day, like we’re all human beings, we’re all just interacting with one another and there are going to be hilarious moments. There are going to be moments where we’re using like dark humor to cope and to get through it when things are particularly difficult.

Speaker 1

And like, that’s a very effective coping mechanisms in a lot of different ways, but there needs to be fun injected into it, even in like the wellbeing services that we provide, because people need that little bit of levity when they are facing really egregious content a lot of the time.

Speaker 2

for sure, absolutely 100% to have that space where you can relax and you can take off that like content moderator hat and you can engage in something that is silly and fun and also you can enrich that part of yourself that likes to, likes to laugh and likes to connect with people because like laughter and fun and humor it’s so great to provide connection it’s so great to like to deepen relationships it’s so great to break tension as well you know if you’ve ever been at any funerals in your life and somebody cracks the tiniest of jokes you the shoulders will be shaken because you need that tension breaking you know so yeah again like going back to what we were talking about earlier on leaving space for all parts and allowing them all to show up when they need to

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, listen, and it has been a delight, as always, chatting to you, I’m sure, I’m sure our audience and our listeners have learned a lot, you know, what content moderators do, what the kind of like difficulties are that they face, but also, you know, as a wellbeing specialist, how you operate and how you support them and the kind of space that you provide to them.

Speaker 1

So I really appreciate you taking the time.

Speaker 2

to chat with me today. My pleasure, thanks for having me. Thanks for watching!

Speaker 1

Thank you so much. And to all of our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Zevo Talks and we will catch you next month.