Workplace Mental Health: Your Questions Answered

Unknown speaker

So we’re delighted to welcome you today to this conversation about mental health at work. My name is Sarah Kean and I’m joined today by my colleague Dr. Pamela Lennon. And in honour of World Mental Health Day, we’re having this very important conversation where we really wanted to invite your questions and understand what’s top of mind for you in relation to supporting your wellbeing at work.

Unknown speaker

So the team this year, very fitting, is it’s time to prioritise mental health in the workplace. And just to set the stage before we dive in to address your questions, it’s really pertinent because all the evidence shows that despite so much progress and so much growing awareness about mental health in work, things are still deteriorating.

Unknown speaker

Over the last 10 years, things have been worsening according to a UN Human Development Report. And then Gallup annually runs its stage of the global workplace. And factors such as illness, stress, anxiety and worry have been under-arised.

Unknown speaker

I’m not budging since 2023. I’ll just hit you with a few more stuff and then we’ll get into it. But it’s just to understand, especially if you’re drawn today, because maybe you’re struggling or you see colleagues struggling, that it is so commonplace and that you’re definitely not alone.

Unknown speaker

And in their last report, probably 41% of employees are experiencing a lot of stress on a previous day. About 20% of employees are experiencing daily. We’ll talk a lot about that as we go into this conversation, but it’s part of the importance of social connection.

Unknown speaker

It isn’t all beauty and feeling doom. There is approximately 20% of employees that are thriving. And we will also bring that into conversation. I really have mental health. isn’t just about addressing things like chronic stress, anxiety and depression, but also about how we cultivate and trace an environment where we can thrive.

Unknown speaker

So that’s just a very free growing tour of some of the stats, Pam. And just from your own experience, Irene’s dealing with our clients, what sort of things have you seen? Yeah, well, most of our client base would be more the tech industry or trust and safety industry.

Unknown speaker

And we see a lot of variance between different organizations. Some are really ahead of the game and proactive about protecting mental health. Others might be more a bit on the reactive side as well. But on the front line, I can see a lot of cognitive overload is quite prevalent.

Unknown speaker

People are hopping between calls and emails and different applications and trying to reach certain performance, and quotas each day as well. And there’s also been, there’s also been the impact of high job insecurity over the last year or two as well.

Unknown speaker

That’s really affecting employee sense of security and commitment to their role and to their company as well. Globally cost. Yeah, and cost of living as well challenges and tied in with that. And all of that fueling that kind of always on.

Unknown speaker

Yeah, yeah. And I think there’s a lot of difficulty switching off after work as well when you’ve been in this high activated state all day and then suddenly your work’s over and you’re working from home and you’re like, it’s hard to settle into that.

Unknown speaker

And we’ll talk probably a bit about nervous system and how we can use that as well to relax. High reported loneliness and isolation, I think people are feeling disconnected as well from who they work with.

Unknown speaker

And when you don’t have that distraction of in the office as well, you know, you just end up working harder and by evening time you’re pretty exhausted. And then I suppose on the management side, there are a lot of managers out there really concerned about team wellbeing and workplace mental health.

Unknown speaker

However, it can be difficult to juggle that with performance and motivation, especially as the squeeze middle and not having that ultimate decision making power about wellbeing. And they need that from leadership as well.

Unknown speaker

So I’m trying to look after their team while also meeting the expectations that are performance wise. So I guess we’ll go into the specific questions, but one of the takeaways that is very important is this multi-tiered approach that we will address today, things that we can do on an individual level, but there are also likely managers and even leaders that are possibly watching today.

Unknown speaker

So we’re hoping that the conversation will touch on pieces for everyone at each level and the Oxford Wellbeing Research Centre has published a huge playbook on workplace wellbeing with great open source resources that are really supportive and I guess the kind of key emphasis from their research more recently is that focus on the organisational and top tier shifts.

Unknown speaker

And so yeah, we’ll turn to questions. I guess I was just setting the stage. And I think to add as well that if an individual, an employee is experiencing difficulties and challenges with work-related stress that number one they’re not alone and number two it’s a complex interplay of systemic factors as well.

Unknown speaker

It’s just not always on the individual to be as this invincible resilient employee that there are a money. factors external to them known in the research that are making it a lot harder for them and which we’ll discuss a bit today as well.

Unknown speaker

And I suppose from a leadership perspective as well that there are a lot of strategies that can be employed to support workplace mental health and it’s not as complicated and maybe as psychological as you might think it is that there are clear frameworks to help support them and guide them as well.

Unknown speaker

And sometimes it’s simple things, simple things and yeah opening up. So let’s dive into the questions and the top one here was what can be done before the mental and physical health of employees and the specific question was in relation to a call center where there’s limited time away from phones so maybe a 15 minute policy break and 45 minutes for lunch and employees are working in an office setting,

Unknown speaker

working at home and some calls have very difficult customizations. It can be argumentative, aggressive and at times even abusive. Thank you. Yeah this is a really good question because there’s very little control in the role and there’s a lot of demands and pressures and this is what you would call in organization and health psychology as a high demand low control role and it’s more highly correlated with psychological and physical health issues.

Unknown speaker

It’s basically bad for your health and mental health unfortunately but there’s certain things you can do to help buffer that. So first of all it appears that there’s low autonomy over break taking and deciding when to take a break and if you’ve been listening to an abusive caller you’ll need some time to debrief there as well so I would recommend that you know some proposals be made to management look we might need 10 minutes can we have more flexibility with break taking if we experience a really challenging call and also there might be a lot of micromanagement there you know call center getting through a certain number of calls which can kind of restrict that sense of agency and lack of autonomy as well.

Unknown speaker

But on, I suppose, a team level of what you could do to help buffer demands is to look at what kind of job resources you can bring in. And having previous experience while I was studying and working, I worked in not so much a call center, but an office dealing with very irate customers all the time.

Unknown speaker

So I can really feel and empathize with the challenge that that holds as well. And what really helps you get through is that colleague support of debriefing with others that you’ve had a really difficult call or been able to just share and maybe even have a laugh at what you’re going through experiencing, which can be more difficult because.

Unknown speaker

they are remote working as well. So it’s easier when you’re person to person there as well. So I think really reaching out to colleagues can help buffer the negative impacts of that. And also dealing with difficult callers is the key question there when someone’s really angry.

Unknown speaker

I think what really helps is to validate their emotion like I can hear you are angry, I can understand you’re frustrated and then proceed with the facts as well can kind of de-escalate their level of aggression because really they’re projecting probably a lot of what’s going on in their personal lives onto you and it’s not really fair and you don’t have that autonomy to go look stop and then stop the call as well.

Unknown speaker

So but I think definitely yeah and then these simple strategies to not personalize it. It’s kind of tied in with the emotional labour of some roles higher than others. So just simple ways to be compressed and already the social piece is coming in reaching out for the peer support.

Unknown speaker

What were you going to say about the manager piece? I suppose it’s trying to bring solutions or bring the issues and solutions to management. Maybe trying to figure out some support channels that you could create on slacker teams just to create that social support in a remote environment as well.

Unknown speaker

And also I think is to look after yourself in that kind of job and to know that in the research is quite impactful and think about ways you can resource yourself after work. What you know not so much about what relaxes you but what re-energizes you.

Unknown speaker

Restorative. Yes, restorative, that’s the word. Whether it’s say walking in your park or being out in nature or playing computer games or whatever it is for you that you feel recharged and can kind of help.

Unknown speaker

of help switch off as well. I think another piece there was mentioning about supporting physical health and I know in a lot of these roles you can be desk friends. So when we worked exploring is there an option for a sit-stand desk and if not if you are seated for a lot of the day exploring ways to weave in even these micro breaks if it’s a minute or two minutes getting up from your desk and stretching and there’s other little micro practices like one or two minutes of breathwork that while you might necessarily be able to fully unplug or leave your desk that if you have an interesting encounter that may be just doing some self-regulation and dental breathwork,

Unknown speaker

diaphragmatic breathwork and help to recalibrate faster and kind of buffer. As I said the taxing the emotional labour can be involved. That’s a good point actually because I find kind of mobilizing all that energy that you’ve taken from the collar whether you have a little exercise bike or you can take a brisk walk or something to just kind of release that what you’ve taken in from the collar as well.

Unknown speaker

And if you’re working from home you have a little bit more freedom which is great if you’re in an office and you start jumping from dinner with a touchy shaking. Yeah yeah even some shaking yeah body shaking would be really good.

Unknown speaker

And yes it would be the best thing and even if you are on site in a workplace with colleagues starting to normalize these things normalize these one minute two and it breaks from the day. Is there anything further to add there that kind of covers a lot of it?

Unknown speaker

Yeah so I guess the takeaway point there as well you’re really saying the importance of advocating to management and to leadership about the importance of considering the structure of the day and break taking.

Unknown speaker

And maybe just having quite rigid physical work boundaries if you’re working in a room or a corner of the room to be able to close that area off in the evening time if that’s possible at all. So what tools and techniques can be used to have relaxation switching off staying focused and alert?

Unknown speaker

That’s a lot of things relaxed and focused and alert. I think there are two different things like techniques to be focused and alert at work and then being able to switch off and relax in the evening which I think is a key issue in with employees in the modern day work design as well and from overstimulation.

Unknown speaker

So I think a really helpful way to think about it is is how your nervous system is during work and how you want to I suppose change it and relax it and de-stimulate it in the evening time because often you find when you’ve had a really busy day it’s very hard to just switch off and relax.

Unknown speaker

You’re just uncomfortable in the relaxation state because your nervous system is so activated. So it can help to, what I actually do if I have a really overstimulated day, multiple channels of communication and tasks is before work, before I start cooking or anything like that, is to just close the curtains.

Unknown speaker

So to switch off, make it a dark room and put on some meditation, some nice relaxing nature meditation music because it, you know, you go from really high tone and you’re just slowly slowing it down and you’re reducing the stimulus that comes in.

Unknown speaker

It means I’m smoothly going into the evening and not highly, highly charged until I go. You mentioned something really important there is how people can become almost accustomed to being in that kind of heightened panic state.

Unknown speaker

And so it can be even pulling it back to basics for some people to even notice when you said, notice how your nervous system is, you know, what are the telltale signs that you’re stressed and that you’re attention and can you start to consciously become more aware of the reality?

Unknown speaker

Slowly bring it down. It can be difficult for some people because they’ve been subject to constant stress and constant sense of threat. Or even if they have a past history of trauma as well, your nervous system is going to be constantly looking out for threats of danger.

Unknown speaker

And you know, some people, and I’ve been this person myself, it’s just meeting you at a really high level, even in a normal circumstance. Sunday morning meeting for coffee, they’re highly activated. So becoming aware that is this necessary for the Sunday morning coffee or for me, you know, it’s just, and to think about it is it’s very hard to change it on a cognitive level, just to think yourself relax.

Unknown speaker

It’s about making your body feeling safe, you know, thinking about am I actually under threat now? And there’s some soothing techniques you can do like the self-hug. Sometimes that brings a sense of containment and relaxation to the nervous system or rubbing the tongue as well.

Unknown speaker

Yeah, this is, this is, it’s amazing how much of an impact it can have on just telling your nervous system that you’re not on high alert now to soothe it. It can have a funny way of mind of its own, the nervous system, even though it’s not.

Unknown speaker

Absolutely. The body is doing something that is totally, I just think of what you wanted to do. I know sometimes, you know, if your height is before performance or a big meeting or, yeah, but it can feel sometimes like your body is out of alignment with the environment.

Unknown speaker

I’m sort of losing my train of thought there. is when you get so highly escalated and activated as a burnout, and that’s where your body shuts down, essentially, to protect itself. It doesn’t fundamentally feel safe.

Unknown speaker

It’s been, in the work context, it’s been overworked. So there you need to kind of gently bring back that sense of safety and stimulation back into the environment with like music or lights, or if anyone’s ever experienced that, it’s just, it’s hard to get motivated.

Unknown speaker

It’s hard to focus as well. It’s kind of a dissociative brain fog as well. And just, I suppose, self-compassion to know that your body is doing what it’s supposed to be doing. And that may be external pressures from work or getting too much or life pressures as well.

Unknown speaker

And you mentioned at the start about the high workload and the always-on piece, but it’s often the most engaged workers and the people that are putting on what sometimes referred to as like brave face syndrome.

Unknown speaker

you know, always saying yes, always putting themselves forage, they’re the ones that can be most at risk of, of this awareness and this sort of chronic tension in waiting over time. And it’s worth exploring, you know, I’m a perfectionist, am I like, what am I trying to prove?

Unknown speaker

What in my past is leading for me to overwork and overwork can be a kind of a distraction and dissociation as well. So I think that self awareness piece or self reflection, or even, or even doing therapeutic work as well can help.

Unknown speaker

Yeah, I just explored it. Yeah, intrapersonal stressors, so the things that are happening within us. So the same situation may be happening, colleagues, and everyone can be having a very different internal response to what’s happening, as you said, based on could be a traumatic past, or, you know, so so the therapeutic work can be a big piece.

Unknown speaker

Just to circle back to that question, what tools and techniques to help with relaxation. So you mentioned reducing the stimulus and having a nice kind of transition ritual and being able to delineate more between work and home life.

Unknown speaker

When it comes to focus and staying alert, I definitely know that breath work piece can also be helpful. Breath, breath can in some ways help us relax, but you can also use it to stimulate focus. Is there anything else with focus and staying alert?

Unknown speaker

No, I was just going to mention again that trying to find ways to mobilize stress as well after work, like running or even playing with pets and things like that, or again, going out in nature or a park and instead of focusing on the chatter in your head, oh, this work project and such and such a person at work.

Unknown speaker

It’s just look at what’s around it, like the wind and the trees. It’s just such a it’s a kind of a meditative practice, but it takes you from the loop in your mind as well to see birds and what you’re doing and you know the dogs running around or things like that I think it’s very therapeutic but definitely great work.

Unknown speaker

Yeah go ahead. I see of the sinner and yoku the forest bathing practice. Yeah. You’re a little mindfulness practice of the five four three two one you know five things that you see four different colors for different types of periods that you feel different sounds that you hear isn’t there like the simple little practices that can help ground.

Unknown speaker

Yeah and then being in nature and the impact on health as well some of the Japanese research there as well and you can even feel it you know things shift as well and things work doesn’t seem as important then when you’re out you know looking at the world observing it rather than you know experiencing it and internally.

Unknown speaker

Yeah green and blue exercise I think there’s a lot of research on that that good. multidimensional benefits of it on a physiological level as well as psychologically. And the other piece maybe that does come to mind with the master task again the focus on alertness would be really realizing that like as biological beings we are in these follow cycles.

Unknown speaker

Let’s see that we should be 100% on 100% of the time and to note that we have phases of peak alertness and then we require that recalibration and restoration. So it’s about a little bit of self-awareness around what your patterns are throughout the work today and when are your phases of peak alertness and then when do you maybe need some downtime and to relax and to note that the impulse to grab caffeine or sugar when you feel down maybe just noticing that and exploring if there’s another way that you can work with your energy dips instead of trying to override them and blast through them because I think that on a physical level is something that feeds into the burnout and so the next question is what is mental health at work?

Unknown speaker

I would love to see practical steps in helping co-workers. It’s a good question like what is mental health at work and why are we bringing it into the workplace? I think on one hand it’s about supporting employees with existing mental health issues so that they’re supported in their work to do their work to be able to flourish to get the help they need to support them but also to ensure primarily that your workplace isn’t making you mentally ill whether that’s true work design,

Unknown speaker

management, you know poor communications, low priority in well-being and it’s all work orientated rather than people focused you know. I think if you focus on people, people will be motivated to do the work and if they feel supported, employees will go above and beyond and that’s what the research shows as well.

Unknown speaker

And then in terms of practical steps to help co-workers, yeah, I think we had a lot of questions around how we can help support the team or co-workers as well. Yeah, it was a consistent team with high support colleagues.

Unknown speaker

So what you’re saying with the strategy and mental health at work is supporting individuals with their own personal challenges and what they may be come to work with as well as employers taking responsibility, monitors taking responsibility for how work is done is in costing people’s mental health and addressing it.

Unknown speaker

So I think formally mental health would often, you know, chronic stress, suppressing anxiety that we mentioned at the start of the webinar comes to mind for people. So we do see the data moving much more, particularly in the last kind of four or five years towards actually what’s going to support people to really thrive and use the word like flourishing and working.

Unknown speaker

Yeah, so that emphasis is also on promotion of well being. So it’s not just hazard, identification and risk mitigation and then crisis management or repair when people have maybe reached there much. But it’s also looking at how we can support people to thrive.

Unknown speaker

So there’s some interesting things in that domain and anything that you’d speak to in regards to supporting colleagues to thrive. I suppose you’re trying to create a microcosm culture that is supportive, if it’s not necessarily organization wide.

Unknown speaker

So having like a non judgmental open attitude towards how people are and, you know, doing that active listening piece, validating, I think, co-workers experience, like someone saying, oh, I’m so stressed with this work project.

Unknown speaker

I didn’t sleep all last night of a newborn or something, you know, whatever’s going on. It’s just validating that what emotion their experience is so powerful and being present with them in their conversation is so powerful.

Unknown speaker

I think whether you’re a co-worker or a therapist is just that’s kind of a powerful piece of support as well. However, to understand that you’re not the co-workers, therapists, or you’re not paid to be there all day to know how to support what issues might be going on.

Unknown speaker

So I think being able to refer onto EAP support or whatever workplace supports or if it’s work related, maybe to report it to your line manager or leadership, you know, to try and improve processes as well.

Unknown speaker

So I think really it’s that openness and non judgmental presence. be. And it’s quite similar to what you mentioned about if you’re dealing with an aggressive client or someone who’s kind of venting at you.

Unknown speaker

So whether it’s client facing or with colleagues, it’s kind of a similar piece there and being able to cultivate the ability to stay present with someone, whatever they’re experiencing. And to hone into the emotion that’s underneath the dialogue or the narrative that’s, it’s helpful in relationships as well to go straight to look what’s going on here.

Unknown speaker

Yeah, and kind of lifting the lid on it and being less reactive and more kind of receptive. So it’s interesting, this segue is nicely into the next one, which is like, how do I get over the feeling of embarrassment about having work that I’m struggling with my mental health?

Unknown speaker

I mean, it’s just, it just makes me want to reach out to that individual because it sounds like the sense of shame around. expressing that there’s mental health challenges. However, having those challenges are top priority for everyone and I think it might be a cultural thing in Ireland as well for that sense of shame that needs to be kind of turned around a bit and I recommend to the person to have self-compassion for the position they’re in.

Unknown speaker

Whether that’s completely work-related or its personal life factors or a combination of both, it’s really important that that person seeks support and you’d be surprised at how supportive workplaces can be.

Unknown speaker

Particularly HR, EAP or management can be just a lot more awareness now and maybe to think about who you’re most comfortable saying this to. If it’s not your line manager, is there someone in HR? Are there any well-being champions at work or a work colleague that you can open to that you feel safe with as well?

Unknown speaker

But it’s so important to get help and support, whether that’s accommodations with how you’re doing your work or some time off to look after personal life challenges, it’s just number one. Realising it’s paradoxically a strength in expressing your vulnerability, it’s not a weakness and I know that might sound a bit too safe but also maybe not having the assumption that all your colleagues that maybe appear to be doing well are.

Unknown speaker

Having that transparency and openness and as you say it’s finding where the safety is and starting there and then from there maybe building confidence to be more open and I think this is a really big one with leaders and managers in particular who really feel maybe the onus is on them to hold the force and be able to certainly portray that everything’s under control and Yeah, it’s for them to role model the authentic and transparent struggles that they may have as well as their wins and as well in celebrating this really fast,

Unknown speaker

serious human connection and that trust. And I guess that’s what we were saying as well at the start that that sense of belonging is absolutely top driver across the board. It’s so common faced globally with roads well being at work is having that strong sense of social connection and belonging with those you’re connected with and that can be challenging if there’s pretense and if there is, you know,

Unknown speaker

people putting up these kind of master barriers. So I think the common side as well and what you were sharing Tom about the compassion feels like it’s the antithesis of perfectionism and the. and let’s say those intrapersonals that we talk about, all the pressure we put on ourselves compassionate for a bit, the key in the in the left open up you know be okay as you are and to embrace your strengths and your weaknesses and allowing that to be seen and witnessed by another.

Unknown speaker

Having weaknesses, everyone has to you know and try to befriend them and be compassionate. Yeah a huge one. So the next question here, what support options are available if someone is struggling? It’s often brushed off and not taken seriously.

Unknown speaker

Companies are getting better at prioritising what was your advice? Yeah I suppose there’s a question about what should be there, what services should be there and I think first of all there should be a confidential disclosure process where if someone’s experiencing difficulty whether work related or personal life factor related that there’s some confidential step process that they know of that’s communicated by HR saying look if you’re experiencing difficulty contact such and such or contact your line manager and this is the process where and this should also be at basic level an employee assistance programme where someone can call and have up to six sessions where they might need to discuss what’s going on at home or their work stress and pressures just to kind of talk about what’s going on and if it’s decided that it’s quite a serious case,

Unknown speaker

if it’s bereavement, if it’s trauma, if it’s anything that needs more specific therapeutic treatment that they’re referred on to so I think that’s kind of more of a a triage when someone’s experiencing issues and then there’s other levels where you can look at training your managers to be able to know how to best support well-being and support your team and employee.

Unknown speaker

trainings, particularly in, it’s been shown that more evidence based like CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, or mindfulness based stress management programs have been shown to be the most effective of what’s there so far.

Unknown speaker

And so you’re just scaling, you know, your employees to be able to best deal with what’s going on in work as best they can. And that’s psychoeducation piece as well. And do everything that you’ve been talking about around the compassion and the presence thing and being able to access what’s on it.

Unknown speaker

So that so the MBS or ACP CBT, all of those are slightly different variations of approaches that awareness cultivate. I think what Jim said to me in that question is it’s often brushed off. Yeah. And that sense, I think, if employees are having the bravery to speak up, and that that grievance mechanism is falling short for them, but they’re not being measure seeing maybe an adequate response, I think our takeaway message would be very much precise,

Unknown speaker

you know, just because it’s, it appears to maybe have fallen on deaf ears initially, not to give up and keep messaging and keep the advocacy for change. And if employees can speak to managers and managers can speak to leadership, you know, it’s at all tiers to build that confidence because it ultimately yields a much stronger and cohesive workforce that’s in everyone’s interest to do it.

Unknown speaker

And sometimes I think at leadership level, you know, there’s maybe focus and concerns with macro level pieces that they don’t quite have the same level of awareness of what’s actually happening on the front line around other tiers in the organization.

Unknown speaker

And it’s not true lack of care, it may be just that the focus has been, yeah, it’s lack of awareness or lack of information. Yeah, that’s amazing. It’s so important to have those communication channels from frontline, you know, people are dealing directly with customers and clients, they can see problems and may have the best solutions as well.

Unknown speaker

So I think it’s important to have that feedback loop as well. I think to find some member of leadership that may be more mental health or people focused as well to have to ask them to advocate for some changes as well, but persistence is definitely, I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it in fact as it works.

Unknown speaker

Yeah, yeah. And as you say, we were discussing earlier on today that eventually if there is weaknesses in the system, it’s going to show events, you know, and the organization will have to sit up and see, okay, well, we have a major problem here.

Unknown speaker

So it is just that persistence piece and several more questions around what supports are available. and how to reach top management if wellness is not prioritised, so that’s similar to what we’ve just discussed.

Unknown speaker

It can be difficult just to add if leadership doesn’t prioritise wellbeing or the company as a whole doesn’t, it can be very difficult to have investment or time for wellness. And again, I think it’s to try to set up a wellbeing committee and advocate for wellbeing or even create your own microcosm of wellness in your team or with colleagues as well as the book.

Unknown speaker

It’s a brilliant point, Tom, because as you were saying as well, we were discussing earlier, many companies maybe are feeling displeased voluntarily and maybe feel that their budget has to be prioritised elsewhere, but a lot of interventions that actually are really, really impactful are employee driven.

Unknown speaker

And Tuesday was kind of creating wellbeing committees on employees and getting employees. like hiding their their their kind of maybe certain certain interventions anyway um can be can be uh a star at least so that’s a key um so i think that sums up the the general teams i’ve come up with the questions um i guess the final comment there’s like yeah just yeah just um it’s a multi-tiered problem as you said at the start um you can make your employees as resilient as possible and give them all the training or your day’s mindfulness training but if the system and the work design is inherently built to impact their well-being that needs to be addressed to reduce psychosocial risk to reduce absenteeism or presenteeism or um and really i suppose we’ve seen there’s been no progress in in well-being at work over the last couple of years and i think that’s down to despite all these great papers advocating for the return on investment or return on value for investing in training or management and well-being and providing evidence-based trainings the problem is i suppose the current financial global situation where uh companies have to be tight and have to lay off staff and i suppose there’s lack of focus they’re trying to survive themselves i suppose um on that level however you know as we said there there’s so much that can be done in an employee level on just the smallest things of um caring and having this openness towards um discussing mental health at work and being authentic and being open about it rather than these tag names let’s talk at work it has to be authentic and embodied by leadership and management as well so you said something really interesting there just about I guess not neglecting the macro like the global level situation and yeah all of these uncertainties that contribute to such a volatile corporate or work business environment and for us to factor that in but you did mention though even though the dial doesn’t seem to be moving significantly on employee well-being like you did to that but what we are seeing with companies that we work with is interventions are effective and it is in fact just work on the individual level just work on the organizational level it’s the cohesive approach it yields the most impact so and I think there was there was reflections last December after playbook was initially then they were saying oh workplace well-being initiatives that say mindfulness and yoga and don’t work there was there was more context there.

Unknown speaker

They don’t work when there’s organization on systemic toxic environments. Yeah, they’re being offered as they’re policing. They do work and they do enhance well being and they are supportive in conjunction with organizational level changes and management training.

Unknown speaker

So that there is this definitely style moving on worker well being and when we see it with companies we’re working with, that really, really makes a difference. And there is this kind of cohesive strategic approach and root cause analysis of what’s really creating the stress for for at all levels, you know, absolutely.

Unknown speaker

Instead of an off the shelf training off you go now you’re resilient. Yeah. This one’s off like 60 minute question. Yeah, continual development and cultivation. I’d say our kind of our big takeaway to anyone watching would be to speak up and whether it’s in relation to your own struggles and reaching out for support or it’s work related challenges, speak up whatever tier you’re asked and persist and advocate and with time changes will inevitably arise.

Unknown speaker

Thanks so much for the conversation, Pam, and for your time. Thanks everyone for tuning in. We really hope you’ve taken something from this today. And yeah, curious continued improvements and all our members.

Unknown speaker

Thanks so much.