Diversity, equity, and inclusion: Beyond The Norm

Speaker 1

Welcome back to another episode of Zevo Talks. My name is Michelle Coggs and today I’ll be your host. Today we are joined by Keira Convey and we’re looking at the area of DE and I. Keira, can we start by just you telling us a few bits about yourself?

Speaker 2

Yeah, of course, thanks for having me. So my name’s Keira Connolly, I’m an Integrative Counsellor and I’m a Corporate Wellbeing Specialist here at Civo Health. So my practice is quite diverse. I look at many different things. So from a corporate sense, looking at self-care, work-life balance and things that help us to increase our life satisfaction and also our productivity as well.

And then also on a personal level, I support people in finding meaning and purpose in their lives and addressing a variety of issues such as anxiety, stress, trauma, bullying. Essentially, I help my clients to navigate change and help them to re-establish balance in their life as well. So the model that I work in is humanistic.

So I’m basing each model of the individual rather than having a one-size-fits-all approach when they come into therapy or self-care. So that’s a little bit about me and my work.

Speaker 1

Can we go into maybe, if I was someone I’d never heard the phrase before, D and I, how would you describe that and how would you kind of simplify it to get to the bones of what it really means?

Speaker 2

So, um, so yeah so DNI is a concept or initiative that’s promoting fair treatment and full participation of people in the workplace and society so essentially it’s targeting or paying attention to hit populations who have historically been underrepresented or discriminated against in these areas.

So, DNI isn’t just a challenge for society it’s also space for corporate business as well so we see a lot of initiatives kind of coming in into schools into workplaces but also into communities to try and have that fair representation across the board.

Speaker 1

Okay, so you mentioned the DEI is becoming a much bigger area and it is getting an awful lot more attention, both within Ireland and internationally, but how do you think it’s kind of looking within Ireland at the moment?

Speaker 2

within Ireland we’re definitely having the conversation more and this is because of what’s kind of happening let’s say on a global basis so if we look at the pandemic that’s had a huge effect but also there’s been racial turmoil historically but we’ve seen a lot of that you know coming up in the news recently too you know we’re talking more we’re talking more about these events the impacts they have on individuals communities and this conversation is really productive so there was a fantastic report done worldwide on deal life but when you look at Ireland we can see that there possibly has been quite a negative impact on women from the pandemic so this this impact suggests that there could be certain threats to women progressing with regards to DNI or you know with regards to gender equality so over or nearly 82 percent of women reported that they felt they were negatively disrupted by the pandemic in regards to their career progression and a lot of them experienced disruptions in their career growth and they believe that this has limited them and maybe has you know maybe stopped progression maybe going into a promotion or that the actual work structure has changed due to the pandemic and these have directly impacted you know what their career progression progression would have looked like pre-pandemic so also as well if you think about uh caregiving and the pandemic and all the changes that it’s met as well um there’s been just a huge shift there extra demands you know in the workplace extra demands in home while we’re all trying to still figure life after the pandemic now and about 40 percent of people reported of women sorry reported in this report that they’re unable to balance these extra demands between work and life commitments so now trying to figure this out we also see that they’re citing that they have uh they’re experiencing or feeling negative consequences to their physical and mental well-being as well so this is one example of DI what it looks like today and why DI is so so important because now that we have this research saying okay we can see the areas that maybe women are struggling or in the in the concept of gender that we can now start applying different um processes different policies to try and help kind of overcome those barriers this is going to look different for every company because not all of us experience the same shift or the same kind of changes with regards to the pandemic we’re all completely different but it’s looking in at that specific situation seeing where those barriers are and then using DI to try and alleviate those barriers so we can have that flow and that career progression again

Speaker 1

That’s really interesting because a lot of people might initially hear DEI and they kind of think they’ll have very specific ideas of what that can mean and what that looks like. Whereas a lot of people wouldn’t necessarily go to think of the raw people had during the pandemic, that sort of thing, and how that could be limiting and where it could lead to and everything like that.

So it’s kind of interesting to see it from outside, very much the norm, if you will, and where people would naturally, their brain would straight away go to when they hear the phrase.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s got so many layers. And, you know, we like to say that this there’s no one size of it all. So it absolutely is going beyond the norm. We can’t just have one, one policy that’s going to suit everyone. It doesn’t exist. It doesn’t work. Every company has different goals. Every community has has different goals. So you need to have a look at what exactly they are.

And then to attract that kind of talent to attract that kind of diversity, you know, the community, the corporate space has to be welcoming. And that’s going to really allow a positive workflow to flourish.

Speaker 1

So that really brings into like, really knowing your employees or your community, kind of knowing the people really well to understand the challenges they have as well as understanding the strengths.

Speaker 2

Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And this is really what we’re talking about. The conversation maybe that’s being had today when it comes to understanding DNI is that people want change and that it’s so important to have this data on who am I working with? What do these people want? Whether in a corporate sense or a community sense.

You know, we want to see greater reflection of our morals and our values in the work that we’re doing. And, you know, we want to see change. When we go back to maybe the struggles that the pandemic has brought on other kinds of life events, worldwide events that have gone on. We don’t want to see a repeat of these things.

Speaker 1

It’s really not going to ever be a one size fits all, but I suppose that’s no more place in the workplace. Like the workplace is somewhere we have different walks of life from every company, especially if you have an international company, you can really have it can be real melting pots or anything.

So it’s very crucial to understand the impact of having the right policies and the right attitudes in place.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because, you know, the D&I isn’t just, it’s not just a thing that, you know, is focusing on representation, there’s huge benefits that we’re that we see, you know, from the workplace as well. It’s bringing around all of these new ideas and we see productivity going up, like, so it’s not, it’s usually beneficial for the workplace as well.

So we can, we know, at this stage of where we are at in the conversation of D&I that representation matters. And, you know, when it comes to the place where we’re living and where we’re working, you know, we want to see the businesses reflecting that, you know, we want different backgrounds, you want different educations, different races, ethnicities and genders, you know.

So this diverse pool is going to bring about that creativity. And then once we bring that in, it needs to be well managed. That’s the key part there. And that’s when we’re saying about there’s no one size that fits all, this is it.

Okay, so it’s not, you know, making up these policies at the start of your D&I journey and then going, right, dusting off the hands, you know, it’s something that has to be managed, it has to be reviewed.

And so, you know, what we’re going to find is is that we’re open up all these opportunities to these different populations who have historically been underrepresented or possibly discriminated or possibly discriminated against.

So it’s showing that once we welcome D&I into our communities, that we’re seeing performance go up because now we have all these different conversations, these diverse ideas. We’re seeing retention going up because we’re creating a place where people, again, feel safe here, they feel heard, they feel listened to. So they’re going to stay in the company.

So we’re seeing less turnover there in a corporate sense. Our reputation is going to be going up too because, you know, happy employees, we’re going to have that happy work going as well and we’re going to see innovation go up as well. So in real life, you know, we aren’t seeing this, you know, in real life, research is showing us all the benefits to D&I.

And hopefully by the end of our chat this morning, I’ll have everyone convinced, but it’s, you know, it’s in, let’s say, the context of Ireland, we’re getting there. We’re getting there. We can see the changes that the likes of the US and England are making. It’s huge. They have people actually hiring specific D&I officers. We’re not there yet in Ireland.

This is why this conversation today is so, so important. We’re just starting it. But what we are seeing, even in kind of globally, let’s say, we aren’t, we still aren’t seeing a reflection, maybe, in reality, what the research is producing. Okay, we’re still seeing those inequalities.

And we’re seeing them kind of these inequalities and discrimination still getting worse at that higher level kind of manager position. So we have a lot of work to do. So right now we’re learning about what D&I is, but we need to get better at managing this, looking at the policies, reviewing the policies when new people come into the company, reviewing them, see, do they still fit?

Speaker 2

Do they work when people leave? Do we need to change them again? So it’s really, really important when we’re understanding the concept within a workplace is that it’s hard work. It’s hard work. But hopefully, you know, what we want to be seeing is in 10 years time, this isn’t a conversation we’re having anymore. It’s just, you know, free flowing and it’s, and it’s just kind of taking its own course.

So right now, we’re starting with the conversation, we’re educating people, increasing awareness and doing all of that, but hopefully we’re going to see that ripple effect where this change is happening just automatically.

And it’s really important that, you know, we’re working hard at the moment, we understand what D&I is, that we’re putting that effort and working to making these policies, reviewing them and practicing them on a day to day basis. And in 10 years time, hopefully, we’re seeing that we’re having these conversations less because it’s just happening anyways.

Speaker 1

I think it’s important to kind of remember we are at the start and look to other countries for guidance, see where they went right, see where they went wrong, and then understanding what, as a nation, an ever-changing nation, that we need and what’s going to help us develop into.

Someone feels like they’re really wanted, really involved and they’re getting, you’re going to get the most out of that person.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that’s that’s the thing as well, isn’t it? It’s that, you know, we want to want to hold on to this creativity, you know, and and we all want to come to work or come into communities where we feel safe. It’s all about that feeling of safety and feeling that we’re encouraged. We want to be using all the tools that we have coming into our society as well.

You know, we’ve seen other gender populations and ethnicities and cultural differences, you know, be discriminated against and and not being given the same opportunity. So this DNI is going to create that safe space I was referring to there to bring bring them into the into those communities, into those workspaces, and then the policies that we are implemented into our day to day life.

That is what’s going to maintain what DNI is trying to create.

Speaker 1

Okay, I suppose like for a organization or someone kind of in a leadership position, what can we do to kind of practically turn it around and bring to you I’m like the center of an organization and make a priority.

Speaker 2

Yeah, 100% of this, there’s so much we can do. I suppose step one is to start. So, you know, we do recognise in Ireland that like, it’s a progress, and it is, and it’s something new, like Dee Dee and I really came about in the mid 1900s. So it’s a very new concept. So to start off, if you’re an organisation, you’re listening today, and you’re thinking, okay, this all sounds great.

I want to bring this in to my next meeting. Like, how do I sell this? First thing is really, is that number one, again, there’s no one size fits all. I’m sorry. Don’t have a simple, easy answer for you. But number one tip is not to assume what people want and what people need, okay? Dee and I, the one thing it’s doing is recognising and celebrating. We are all individualistic.

So that means the policies that we are going to put in place need to be individualistic too. So if you’re at a company level, at a personal level, level, I want you to look at the people or the person that you’re dealing with, recognising that they are individualistic. So their needs are going to be individualistic too. So it’s getting to know them.

This is going to be the rich data that we’re going to get that’s going to help us to decide, okay, this is what they need. This is what they want. And we can start going from that point. So what we’re going to do is number one, we’re going to gather that data, okay? We’re going to start that conversation. And a lot of people will be kind of apprehensive to have this conversation.

So at a company level, we don’t know what we’re going to get back at an individual level, you know, maybe we’ve never kind of asked someone about their ethnicity or their culture before, or, you know, about their life circumstances, whatever it is, maybe it’s something that we haven’t felt comfortable about, maybe we feel like it’s a little bit too personal.

So I’d always start with those open-ended questions. Don’t assume that they want to talk about it. Don’t assume, you know, it’s giving that opportunity that when it comes to a company level, that we do have these feedbacks, they’re anonymised, okay? You can ask for like gender and position level to make sure that you’re getting a good representation.

So say if you’re putting out a piece of research or questionnaire and then only, let’s say, men at high level positions answer and everyone below it, they don’t get the opportunity to answer it, then you’d know that that data would be skewed. So when it’s coming to the, when it is coming to other company level, we do need certain kind of characteristics there.

But on a person level, ask those open-ended questions. Ask them, say, hey, I’d love to like get to know you more. Or, you know, there’s this piece about you that I don’t really understand, would you be comfortable in having a conversation around it? Really have those open-ended questions, but respecting the autonomy of the person as well.

Speaker 2

Then at a, sticking with kind of the organisational level, because that’s kind of the question that you asked me, the, we may have certain businesses that are really small or for some reason that they just can’t seem to facilitate the research to gather the data. Maybe, you know, we don’t have that big of a population pool.

So what we want to do is try and facilitate and include as many topics as we can, that we recognise that aren’t being widely discussed within the culture of the company as well. So anything that you think you’re missing out of, start that conversation. Raise that awareness, you know, if it’s around neurodiversity, LGBTQ. The passion that to drive DE and I is going to come from that higher level.

That higher level is going to be top down. So it’s going to be the managers, the CEOs, the COOs pushing that down, but then the people maintaining it and practicing it. It’s going to be from the bottom up. So it’s going to be the employees taking the skills that they’re learning and cultivating them in their day-to-day lives, the team leads, the managers, and so on, so on.

And this is how we’re going to create that fantastic culturally diverse and safe workflow. So it’s really important that we recognise the responsibility of our leaders in the corporate space in being proactive about this. And I’m also managing it as well.

So as I was saying, you know, it’s the top down is going to be bringing all those new ideas, but it’s the bottom up that’s going to be practicing them and changing that kind of culture within the workplace. So again, remember, I was saying earlier about the once we make the policies still not done, we still have to review them, we have to manage them.

So it’s also the leader’s responsibility to making sure that everyone is practicing correctly. You know, there’s no microaggressions or bullying happening within the teams as well, avoiding subcultures forming.

Because once we have that information, you know, we all interpret it in different ways and we may be practicing it or, you know, digesting it in a certain way that maybe not be the reflection of what the company was going for.

So it’s really important as well that, you know, once we spark this conversation that we’re making sure that as it’s kind of blossoming, it’s working well that the policies that we’ve implemented, they fit. If they don’t fit, it’s the responsibility of the leaders to kind of sit down, review and to make sure that they are flourishing. They’re actually working.

If they need to be changed, then that’s what’s really important there. So, you know, if we’re creating a culture of inclusion, it’s going to allow your company to exceed beyond the norm as well.

Speaker 1

So I suppose, like, obviously we’ve spoken a lot about it and everything like that, but if a company is at a stage where the client thinks, okay, we need to join the rest of them, how do they go about attracting a good diverse workforce and try to incorporate that and kind of get that to the heart of their organisation?

Speaker 2

Yeah, of course. And I mean, you know, this this conversation today, it isn’t to make anyone, you know, feel bad or to be like, oh, my God, you know, this is this is like these conversations, it’s it’s for an educational purpose purpose, you know, it’s a raising awareness, you know, and again, there’s not a one size fits all models.

So don’t rush it, you know, it’s it’s we’re gonna have to take take the time that it’s going to be trial and error, we’ll put things in place that will work and then they won’t work. And so, you know, it’s really important to kind of mention that maybe first off, you know, there is no one size fits all, no one’s perfect.

And it really does take that constant kind of review and management to to get to where you need to get. But if you’re trying to attract that diverse workforce, make your company attractive to us, you know, and that’s not over complicated. We’ve covered a lot today already. So look at your hiring, your promotion, your retention practice, look at all of those. How is that at the moment?

Look at the policies that you can put in place to make your company attractive. And once, you know, with the existing workforce you have, you know, if you’re bringing that in, you need to have a certain level of work done for when when those populations do into the business that they do have, they are welcomed and people are comfortable with with change as well.

So those educational listening sessions such as like peer groups can just be fantastic because they allow and they allow employees to establish connections that maybe they weren’t given the opportunity to connect on that level before.

So in the peer the peer group sessions or educational listening sessions, it really allows individuals in the workplace to challenge their biases, their stereotypes or certain ideas or thoughts that they may have had in the past. And it gives them the opportunity to ask questions, learn and to show up better for their colleagues in the workplace.

And they can learn practical skills and learn certain stereotypes and biases, but also it opens up a whole new conversation which is so healthy and helpful for the diverse population working within that company as well. So, if you want to start, I suppose it’s asking, how are you showing up as a company to accommodate that diverse population now?

Think about that, digest it, and then have a look and see, okay, what are the certain things that we can kind of bring in there? Look at your, if you’re thinking about a neurodiverse population, what’s the noise level like? What’s lighting like? Thinking about people coming in with disabilities or illnesses, you know, do you offer occupational health, ergonomics?

When you look at families, parents coming in, what’s your flexibility like? You know, so it’s really important to think about, okay, who do we want coming in? What is our life looking like and what are we doing to keep them there for them to have an enjoyable workforce?

Speaker 2

And remember as well that DNI, it’s not just for, it is all about the individual, it’s completely individualistic, but it’s not just the individual that benefits from these policies. We see huge benefits in the corporate world as well, such as the motivation, the retention, innovation, creativity. So there’s huge corporate benefits there as well. So that is how I would start.

If, you know, if you’re thinking now to say, okay, I want to bring about this change, ask yourselves, how are you showing up for that, for those diverse populations? How are you attracting that diverse talent? And start there. Difficult question, but I know everyone can do it.

Speaker 1

It’s a different way to go about it because for most things it’s very much what an employer can do, or an employee can do for the employer, like very few would ever look at it the other way around.

Speaker 2

That’s exactly it. So like, you know, we’re actually kind of trying to have that balance. We’re both reflecting each other’s core values and, you know, what’s important. And that’s why we see the innovation. That’s why we see the retention and the creativity because, you know, in ideal circumstances and in ideal kind of conditions will flourish.

Think about, you know, like growing a plant, you know, with enough light and water and good soil, it’s going to bring this beautiful flower. Whereas if it’s not getting those kind of, not ingredients, but that nutrition, it’s not gonna flower, you know, it’s not gonna grow. It’s not gonna flower.

So we can think about DNI as being the water, the soil and the sun and the flower representing us, but also the workplace that we’re into.

Speaker 1

Thank you. I think that kind of brings us to the end of today. I’d like to thank you very much for joining us. Thank you for having me. It’s been great. Really interesting subject to look at. We’ve never actually touched on this before. So first time for everything. So just on that, I suppose, thank you to the listener for listening.

And if you have any questions about the you know, please feel free to reach out to us at SeagullHealth.com. Thank you for listening to this episode and tune in next time.