Keeping mental health at the heart of your organisation with Davina Ramkissoon

Speaker 1

Welcome back to Zevo Talks. I’m your host Ashlyn. As we continue to adapt to what is happening around us, we are looking at how companies have made changes and found a new way of working. Keeping your organization’s morale and well-being high has never been more important.

Speaker 1

And we want to look at how you can maintain your workplace culture. Today, we are joined by Davina Ramakassoon, our well-being director here at Zevo Health. Davina has a master’s in health psychology and has worked in large organizations for years.

Speaker 1

She has a keen interest in workplace well-being and has brought this professional and personal interest to her work with Zevo. So today, we are joined by Davina Ramakassoon, our well-being director here at Zevo Health.

Speaker 1

Davina has a master’s in health psychology and has worked in large organizations for years. She’s a keen interest in workplace well-being and has brought this professional and personal interest to her work with Zevo.

Speaker 1

So Davina, thanks so much for joining us today. To start, as the well-being director here at Zevo Health, has well-being always been something that you would have a particular interest in?

Speaker 2

Yeah in my childhood it was instilled quite strongly in me that health is wealth and my dad used to say that all the time and so he for us you know he would take us running most weekends like he wanted to go running as well so it was just a way to kind of manage the child care and get us out the house I guess with my mom’s and headspace um but then there was also a risk of diabetes in our family so from a really early on a really early age my dad was also really conscious about what we were eating and would try to limit our sugary intake which was pain for us because you know we’re children and we wanted to have our sweets um but it was from a perspective of um care and concern and I think some of those messages stayed with me throughout my life as I kind of um grew up um and my mom was also a kind of really key player in like she loves cooking loves making us nutritious meals and and it was just something that has always been there within um even within my family back in Mauritius like everyone tries not even tries I think it’s just they eat quite healthily keep quite active um my granddad’s brother for example he’s 80 and every day he’s still doing his yoga and yeah I think it’s just the influence that my wider family have had on me which have which has made me um so interested in well-being um in addition to that my parents both of them are are nurses so my dad was a registered mental health nurse those were the two influences from their careers which have filtered into my perspective on the world as well

Speaker 1

And then how would you practice while being yourself?

Speaker 2

yeah really interesting question because for me well-being is basically living so every action you take is either going to harm or help your well-being so from you know the moment you wake up we’ve all got choices and i know how hard it is every day to try and make the right choices for your own well-being but for me it’s you know minding myself being aware of who i am what i’m feeling thinking doing you know even down to how i talk to myself but it’s definitely all the foundational things as well so you’re eating drinking sleeping exercising right and yeah it takes a lot of time to get all those things in order it’s not something that you can just aspire to and have you know a level of 100% well-being every day it’s something that needs continuous focus and attention

Speaker 1

And how do you think that someone could kind of get to, like where could they start to get to a hundred percent kind of living well-being every day or?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think that this is a really hard question for some people to answer, because we’re not necessarily taught the skills in school to know what does healthy eating look like? What does good sleep hygiene look like?

Speaker 2

And how do we look after our mental health? And there are huge areas in themselves. So I would say if you want to start paying more attention to your wellbeing, pick one area. So maybe you’re not getting enough sleep, start looking at how to improve that, then move on to maybe the next pressing thing in your life.

Speaker 2

Maybe you want to start an exercise routine. So it’s consulting with your GP and perhaps working with a PT and starting that exercise piece. It’s really, you know, listen to what your body is telling you that you need and start there and then grow it.

Speaker 2

It’s definitely not that one size fits all. So that’s why it’s really important to try and find your way and look after your wellbeing.

Speaker 1

As an employer how can you mind your staff when working from home and how can you check signs when you can’t see them?

Speaker 2

Yeah. That’s a really, really difficult one with the remote working. So it’s about doing a lot of things intermittently and interchangeably. So, you know, depending on what your communication channels are, it might just be pinging your team and seeing how they’re getting on.

Speaker 2

Do they need anything? It’s definitely about having those one-to-ones with your team members still, having those check-ins, maybe not even talking about work. Because remember, if we would be in the office, we’d be, you know, making a coffee and just talking about life.

Speaker 2

And a lot of that soft conversation has unfortunately been lost. But I do see a lot of organizations making a lot of effort to try and bring those soft communications back in. Because they’re so important.

Speaker 2

They help us, you know, get to know each other and build trust and understand if someone’s struggling on a project and how can we support. So it’s really important that, you know, those soft check-ins, maybe just calling a colleague and saying, do you want to have a chat and a coffee, will go a long way.

Speaker 2

It is going to be a lot harder to see the signs of someone who is struggling with the distance that we have. And now that we’re not in the office, we may not see the same physical cues that we may have looked for in the past.

Speaker 2

But I think it’s really important to open the conversation or give space to it. So I know leaders struggle with a lot of the time with finding the balance between being vulnerable and being seen as emotional.

Speaker 2

You may not get it right, but I think it’s still important to create that psychologically safe space and either start the conversation. You know, the pandemic is happening. We’re all experiencing it in different ways.

Speaker 2

It’s okay to share some of those experiences and hopefully other team members may start to join in and just have that conversation in a non-threatening and very safe way.

Speaker 1

And if an organisation is dealing with a sceptical team, what do you think is the best way to encourage engagement?

Speaker 2

When it comes to skepticism, like the team will be unsure. They’ll be looking at the situation and looking at whether the evidence proves or disproves what you’re saying or what they believe is due to happen.

Speaker 2

So it’s really about patience. So being communicating a strong message with empathy, acknowledging that people will come to the point of change in their own time, being consistent in your messaging and also being boundry with the care that you provide them as a leader.

Speaker 2

It’s about giving space to airing some of those concerns as well, but it might also be considering another coin, another side of the coin, say cynicism, sometimes used interchangeably with skepticism, but cynicism is a sign of burnout.

Speaker 2

So it might be something to just keep an eye on and have another check in with a team member outside of a group setting and just hear them, listen to why they have these concerns. And you won’t be able to solve everything, but listening is half the battle if someone feels hurt and they know they’ve said what they need to and hopefully that will help bring them on board as things continue to change.

Speaker 2

I would say also during this time, it’s really important to have a healthy amount of challenging when it comes to skepticism. You do want to listen and you do also want to show any evidence that disproves any of that concern that they may be having, which maybe might not be correct at that time, just to help build confidence, but it’s definitely about timing.

Speaker 2

And you might not be able to have all of that conversation in one go. It might be one day you just listen, give it a few days and organically the conversation will arise again and you might lay a few more blocks in the messaging.

Speaker 2

And then you can keep on building from there. So I think timing, patience, consistency, boundary care and showing that empathy are real important ways to help encourage engagement.

Speaker 1

How are you managing your work-life balance as they are now more intertwined than ever?

Speaker 2

Oh, this for me, to be honest, was a challenge in the beginning. So it was very easy kind of because you don’t have that commute. And maybe I don’t think I realized how much I valued that commute until it was gone, because sometimes I’d be able to walk home from work or just have that that time to decompress.

Speaker 2

So I think, yeah, it was a challenge in the beginning. Now I’m a lot more boundaried with myself. And so it’s really important, you know, if my lunch break is there and taking my lunch break and moving away from my screen, I’m trying not to be on my phone as well, because you’re just looking at a laptop all day and then you run into the potential cycle where you go from laptop to phone to TV and it’s just no rest for your eyes.

Speaker 2

So I like to try and change my tasks as well. So I like sewing and designing clothes in my spare time. So like that kind of artistic outlet is really beneficial and helpful for my mind. And I like painting as well.

Speaker 2

So sometimes it’s just doing those things interchangeably. But I definitely think it’s about planning. So plan your work time, plan what you’re going to do in your spare time. So you have those clear boundaries, time boundaries, so that you have work during work and then home and everything else that you want to do for your own personal fulfilment is still there.

Speaker 2

It’s not just left on the back burner. I think that’s really important because we have to create those boundaries now that we don’t have the physical distinction of the office and the commute.

Speaker 1

And I guess coming into winter, I feel like during summer work from when you had the option of leaving the house, you know, winter coming in, it’s going to be cold or the weather is going to be changing.

Speaker 1

Are there any tips that you can think of how people can change their space, like the way in which they’re working so that there’s that kind of when they finish work, there’s the change somewhere without leaving the house maybe.

Speaker 2

Yeah I was actually thinking this myself because I’ve been enjoying the weather so much and I was just like oh my word how am I going to cope when the darker days set in and and I don’t know if I have the full answer right now because I value the outdoor space so much.

Speaker 2

What has been good for for people that I know have worked is clearing their desk so tidying up creating that ritual for work ending so that you can move your work stuff to the side like tidy up your kind of notepads or loose pieces of paper just put them out of sight if you can if you’ve got that space to do that and people who do have you know their officers like shut the door and don’t go back in there till the next day and use and associate other parts of the house with other tasks or activities that bring you joy but I think it is still going to be really important to get outside even in the winter months because we know in Ireland that there are a lot of people who have to take vitamin D supplements who struggle with SAD or who just aren’t getting enough daylight so even on the cloudy days you’re still going to have some of that benefit of being outside even if it is raining and not too warm outside.

Speaker 1

then people can often be dubious to share mental health problems in the workplace. How can conversations be encouraged coming from the top?

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, Ashley, me and you were talking about this just before we started the podcast. And, you know, we’ve been through our own experience of this in work. And I think we’ve both learned a lot from this.

Speaker 2

And, you know, at one point I was your line manager and you were very new to the organization. And there wasn’t the maybe behavioral symptoms that we would look out for. I mean, you were well presented when you were coming to work.

Speaker 2

You were eating with the team. You were quiet, but we know that’s not necessarily a symptom. That’s just part of, you know, your personality. And the same for me as well. I’m quite introverted and can be quite, you know, especially at work, just focused.

Speaker 2

But we went through, you know, a very, I would say, a challenging but also period of growth in our relationship, in our relationship, in the way that we had to build trust. We had to take time to give you and I the knowledge of where where we were.

Speaker 2

I spoke about trust a minute ago, just making you feel comfortable to share with me and for you to know as well that I had your best intentions at heart. And that’s very difficult for either new employees coming to the organization or employees who are scared to inform their employer about mental health for fear of being weak.

Speaker 2

But I think it’s really not about that. It’s hopefully, you know, with times the changing, there’s so many more managers who are understanding that we can’t compartmentalize life and work. You know, whatever is impacting us in our personal lives is obviously going to have an impact in our professional.

Speaker 2

Try our best as we may. You know, we may try to try and keep those two separate, but we’re not robots. And you know, whatever causes pain and distress in one area of our life is going to have a draw on our resources.

Speaker 2

And so I hope with time, you know, we’ll have a more compassionate workforce combined of, you know, direct reports, managers and just that element of trust is there and it grows and organizations are able to create that psychological safety for their team members to come forward and say, hey, I’m not feeling my best and struggling.

Speaker 2

This is what I’m experiencing and I really, I could do with a bit of help in the workplace.

Speaker 1

Yeah, because I guess I’ve in my kind of work experience, I’ve never worked for a company where I felt able to trust my managers or wanting to open up or had maybe like peers even to open up to. And in skill growing up, we were always totally problems at the door.

Speaker 1

And I think that’s something that’s just kind of told to a lot of Irish people kind of growing up, leave your problems at the door, go to skill, focus on skill, then leave. But given the experience that we’ve had, I can definitely say that opening up to you.

Speaker 1

And I’m being honest, I’m giving you my trust. I’m like earning your trust as well just changed my whole work experience, I guess. It made the days better. It made everything a bit easier. And so even like, to anyone who is struggling, find someone in work, even if it’s not, first of all, your line manager, find one person that you can trust, I think.

Speaker 1

And because being open and sharing is it’s so important just to be able to talk.

Speaker 2

100% without that social support, I think we’d all be lost and that’s really unfortunate messaging that you received and I’m sure hundreds and thousands of other people have received. It’s an unrealistic ideal and it really does contribute towards the amount of distress that any one person is experiencing.

Speaker 2

And just like you, I’ve been in that place before where my mental health hasn’t been great and I’ve had to say to Richard, I’m overworked or I’m stressed out with this project or I’ve been working a little bit of overtime, I need to take some time back.

Speaker 2

And again, that’s been met with compassion and it’s just, yep, take your time, do what you need to do. And I think it is really important to have that person in the literature that says having a best friend at work is the most important relationship.

Speaker 2

And the second one to that is your line manager because you will float with your best friend at work or a very close colleague. You have a bit of a laugh, probably you get to let off some steam, but it’s the line manager who can actually make the tangible changes.

Speaker 2

And so I think, yeah, we all need to be a bit more aware, especially during COVID, there are going to be an increased amount of people experiencing mental health symptoms. And if they’ve received that messaging that you spoke about, just leave it at the door, there might be a lot of people just sitting and suffering in silence and not understanding that what they’re experiencing are symptoms of anxiety or stress or depression.

Speaker 2

And they’re all very normal, especially in the circumstances that we’re in at the moment.

Speaker 1

If you could give advice to someone that is struggling with their mental health in the workplace, what are some ways they could go about airing their struggles with their employer?

Speaker 2

Well, yeah, just as we were speaking there, I think when I was spoken about trust and timing, but I think for the individual, especially if you had received any messaging to say, you know, just leave it at the door, just get on with it, it’s about having that courage and bravery to change your perspective on what you feel you should be like at work, looking at the pressures that you may put on yourself or feel others are imposing on you.

Speaker 2

And I think it’s that acceptance piece that we all have mental health. I think a lot of us associate mental health with just the negative aspects of it, or mental health illness. But in reality, you know, mental health is on a continuum.

Speaker 2

And to have positive mental health enables us to live, you know, an independent and fulfilled life. So it’s in your interest to be able to live that life. And I think everyone wants to, they just don’t know how to at times manage some of these issues, which are all very normal.

Speaker 2

And when we look at the stats of mental health in Ireland and across the world, you know, we can see how many people experience mental health, they say one in four people across their lifetime with an experience of mental health and illness.

Speaker 2

And you know, you look at the size of your families or your teams, and you realize you first realize that it’s not out there outside of our social network, it’s in there. It’s part of the group, but it’s almost silent and unobserved.

Speaker 2

So if there’s someone who’s struggling with their mental health in the workplace, I think find someone who you can share your struggles with, whether it is that close colleague in their first instance, someone who you feel you can safely and confidently share these experiences with, someone who won’t judge who might help you link in for other supports, whether it’s your EAP, but if that’s not enough,

Speaker 2

it’s a really good idea to try and map out what you want to say to your manager. So it might just be writing down some of the symptoms you’re experiencing, how it’s impacting you and Mark, and maybe even if they were to help, or if you had a magic wand, what could you do or what could they do to help improve the situation at the end of that conversation?

Speaker 2

I think it’s about embracing mental health more than anything and trying to find a way and find the tools and resources to cope, but not to do that alone. It’s definitely about bringing that support with you.

Speaker 1

At the moment, with all that is happening in the world, things can get too much or seem overwhelming. How do you think people can stay on top of their mental health and to try and keep a positive outlook?

Speaker 2

You know, we’re overwhelmed at the moment with so much media. And this was here before COVID. So I think what COVID has done is put the brakes on life and is forcing us in some ways to reassess how we want to live, what do we value, and how do we want to redirect our attention.

Speaker 2

We know from the predictions that are being made that mental health is going to have a significant rise. And also in line with the World Health Organization predictions regarding depression, they’ve predicted that it will be the leading cause of disease burden by 2030.

Speaker 2

So we’re headed in a direction that we need to take control of because potentially there’s a mental health crisis on a global level, which is going to hit us. We have a lot of the tools and resources and education available.

Speaker 2

And, you know, I see now it’s being taught a lot in schools, but I think, you know, there’s this cohort that we would probably fall into where we didn’t get that education in school and we’re fast learning these skills as an adult.

Speaker 2

So I think it’s going to be really important that we’re taking this time to really consider what is helping and what is harmful to our mental health and try and make small sustainable changes that are in alignment with our values, how we want to live our life, and which are supportive of our mental health.

Speaker 1

And would there be any small daily habits that people could start right now to safeguard their mental health? Throw your phone away.

Speaker 2

So when I went travelling after I finished university, I didn’t have a phone on me and it was only at that point that I realised really the impact of my phone and how much I was tied to it. And I often think if aliens came down and they were to look at us and the way we lived our lives, they would literally think that this phone was our life support, that we couldn’t live without it.

Speaker 2

It goes everywhere with us. We’ve got notification after notification. And there are other things that happen with the phone in regards to that instant gratification that we can receive and the swipes and the likes and those feel-good hormones.

Speaker 2

But I think, you know, if you look at your screen time, it’s probably quite worrying the amount of time that we spend looking at the screen and we don’t spend time to look up and have a conversation with our family members who we live with or our friends or even just look up and, you know, see the nature that’s around us.

Speaker 2

It’s really, I think, if there was one small thing, I think it would be more mindful in whichever way is possible. So if you’re eating dinner, you know, maybe eat your dinner away from the TV and enjoy the flavours.

Speaker 2

We spend hard times rushing from one thing to another and I think slowing down and taking appreciation of the beauty of life and coming out of our phones and so that we can reconnect to the bigger picture, I think, or sounds big, but it’s going to have huge benefits to our wellbeing.

Speaker 2

And yeah, I think that would probably be one small habit that would reap years of benefits and probably add much more time to your day as well.

Speaker 1

Yeah. That kind of brings us onto my final question, which was focusing on switching off. So you obviously do think then that living in such a digital world makes it harder for us to be kind of within the present moment.

Speaker 1

Do you think that it’s because we’re comparing ourselves to kind of like an unrealistic version of what we’re seeing online, or maybe it’s a constant stream of like negative news. There’s not really a lot of positive news out there and it’s not just at our fingertips constantly.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think this this problem like it’s not new. I think technology evolved very rapidly and us as human beings we haven’t caught up to say what are the boundaries with technology? How do we want it to complement our lives?

Speaker 2

Because it has helped our lives in very many like numerous ways. For many people it’s exactly as you said those things you know the comparison and you know the Instagram selfie. I’m starting to see a lot more and this might just be the algorithm and my newsfeed I don’t know but I’m starting to see a lot more women anyway in this movement to challenge what is Instagram versus reality.

Speaker 2

So that’s been positive and I hope that continues because it’s setting an unrealistic expectation for the youth and for us as adults you know if we don’t look a certain way or if our lives are not holidays don’t look a certain way then what does that mean?

Speaker 2

Are we missing out or is someone else’s life is better? But I think as well just remember like we don’t really post about the bad days, we just post about what’s great. So even when people are posting about you know their extravagant Instagram life we don’t actually know anything about their lives and I think that goes that can be said for many people who we interact with.

Speaker 2

We don’t really know what any one person is experiencing until they let us in and explain what it might be that they’re experiencing. So definitely that comparison piece I think we probably all could do with being a little bit more kinder to ourselves and accepting of our bodies.

Speaker 2

I mean our bodies are fabulous things no matter what shape size whatever they come in they help us in like you know walk down the street be able to look up at the sky to be able to look after ourselves and I think the very basic function of our body has been lost to just the appearance but you know that’s the you know the most gratitude you can have for your body.

Speaker 2

My grandma always used to say the body is a house for the soul and it’s and just going off tangent a little bit here but she used to say I used to when I was younger I used to wind her up and say oh I was smoking and I wasn’t but I would just do it for the shock value it was a bit of a messer and she was going she would say to me she’d say would you smoke in your house and I was like no I could the thought of smoking in your house is just it was just odd and she was like well you’re putting that in your body that is your house you know like but it just made me think a little bit more about my body in a different way and its function and how to look after it and why you need to look after it so yeah I think the digital world has I think we have to mature a bit more to know how to use technology in a way which is beneficial to us I mean of course we already know in many ways how to do it but I think we’re quite addicted at the moment and and I think that’s a societal issue you mentioned something about the the comparison piece and then there was a second part of the question

Speaker 1

Yeah, so it’s kind of like, you know, I would always associate the news at the moment anyway with negative news. It’s very hard to find kind of the headline being something positive. And I think having negative news at our fingertips as well is something that just, it’s like a constant negative stream into your life.

Speaker 1

Like you, you might get a notification and it’s a headline and it’s news that you, that has just come straight to you and it’s negative and it could just completely change your day, essentially, you know, it’s, it’s not something that you’ve got looking for it, but it’s come straight to your phone.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And like, so we, we’re primed for negativity. Um, yeah, we have that negativity bias, which is there in, in many ways to keep us safe. You know, it helps us attend to threats in the environment, but when you’re bombarded with those threats, um, and those, those negative headlines.

Speaker 2

And I think just looking at the time that we find ourself in as well, it’s not just negative. There’s a lot of grief. There’s a lot of sadness. Um, um, with, uh, the black lives matter protests, um, and that level of disconnect things that have happened in this side of the year.

Speaker 2

Um, it’s causing us all to, to have a lot of that information, um, at our fingertips and you know, there are graphic images and videos to go along with that as well. And I think it’s important to recognize that that emotional toll that it might have on you.

Speaker 2

So if you do find that you’re looking at the news quite a bit, and it’s not having a positive impact on you, you know, it might be looking at considering turning your notifications off so that you have the control to go in and have a read of the updated headlines.

Speaker 2

Um, and to mind your, your mental health in that way, because the, there’s 101 notifications for every app on the phone. Um, I’m sure, you know, we will have to be mindful of those. So I think it’s about creating a digital world more than anything, shaping it in a way, which is helpful for your mental health.

Speaker 2

Um, so if you want to use Instagram and Hey, I do, there’s nothing, there’s no hate with the Instagram. It’s just, I know for my mental health, I have to turn the notifications off because I hate having, um, like just bombarded at me.

Speaker 2

And then what happens then is it creates that cycle. If I see the notification, I want to go into it to see what it’s about. And then all of a sudden I’m scrolling on, I don’t know, dog puppy videos or something like that.

Speaker 2

And you’re, and you’re half an hour later and you’re going, what have I just been doing? It’s like this trap that sucks you in and it just keeps you scrolling. And so, yeah, I think crafting your digital world is probably the first step in, in making it work for you.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I would definitely agree. I’ve turned notifications off on all my apps, like any app that I have on my phone. I switched them off and then I took a moment as well where if I am on Instagram and there’s a post that doesn’t make me feel good, I’ll unfollow the page.

Speaker 1

And I think that’s a responsibility that we all need to kind of take that if we’re following these people, but their posts aren’t giving us like a positive kind of vibe or, you know, it’s not, it’s not like a vibe.

Speaker 1

I think you should just unfollow the account and that’s your responsibility to do, because if you’re following accounts, you’re constantly complaining about or giving out about, it’s like, what’s the point really?

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I guess that also then comes back. Yeah, that comes back to us as participants in that. Are we, what are we posting? Are we, and that conscious posting, you know, why are we posting this? And, and there’s no shame in, you know, everyone wants to feel good about themselves as well.

Speaker 2

So people are going to continue to put up the good selfies that you know, I think it’s just the conscious posting as well. What image are we trying to project? Thank you.

Speaker 1

so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me here. Thank you for listening to another episode of Zevo Talks. Thank you to Davina Ramakassoon for taking the time to join us today. The way in which we work has changed massively in recent years and never more so than in 2020, with the world adapting to COVID-19.

Speaker 1

How organisations support their people is more important than ever. Thank you for joining us and tune in next time to hear more about what the future of the workplace looks like.