Shifting the stigma on mental health with Dublin GAA Player Shane Carthy

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Hello, I’m Aisling and welcome to Zevotalks, a new podcast where I get to chat to risk takers, thought leaders and great people making change. So we’re continuing on with our discussion on wellness. This week we’re going to be talking about mental health.

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Ireland has one of the highest rates of mental health illnesses in Europe with 18.5% of the Irish population recorded as having a mental health disorder. Along with this number, there are those who are still suffering in silence.

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Today we are joined by Shane Carthy, Dublin football player who is breaking the stigma surrounding mental health in the Irish GAA scene and the wider community. Thanks so much for joining us today Shane.

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Thanks very much for having me in. So you have talked very openly about your story and it’s something that’s very inspiring and it’s a huge benefit to Ireland, a country that is struggling to understand the importance of talking about mental health.

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I think we’re a country of talkers but we don’t talk about how we feel. So could you first start by talking about your story a little bit and telling us a bit about it? Yeah, so I’ll bring it straight back to my primary school days where it all would have started for me in Port Marnacroy where I grew up and still live to this day.

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I have three sisters and both my mum and dad and they were hugely supportive of all of us and one thing in particular that they threw us into was sport and that was no different for me. I took up Gaelic, soccer, hurling, you name it and from a very young age I was relatively talented at anything that I threw my hand at and straight away from a young age just put me up in a pedestal this kind of limelight figure that I didn’t want to be on.

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I really really enjoyed all types of sports and being okay at them you know but I didn’t want to be this kind of pedestal like figure but nonetheless because of my talent in these sports that’s where I found myself you know so from a very young age that’s where I started off.

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So my transition down into secondary school was seamless like you know what would happen. being a thing for a lot of people it’s a very difficult transition you know gone from primary to secondary a new change of scenery new kind of group around you and because of my popularity amongst friends mainly through sports and you know it was seamless for me and I would have continued along the trend of playing all types of sport in particular Gaelic football and I would have been involved in the Dublin teams right right the way up and development teams and all the way up until under 16s where there comes a point then you need to kind of choose I was whittled down to Gaelic and soccer at that time both playing at a very very high level and my decision was and obviously to go to Gaelic football so that’s where my kind of Gaelic football career would have really started I guess at a minor grade and it would have been where I met a man who was very very pivotal in my story today in the shape of Desi Farrell who was our minor manager at the time and you know he gave me my first shot at a real kind of Dublin career and fast forward and then you know I would have brought me into middle of fifth year it would have been what would have been my second year of minor football and it would have been the start of you know what i didn’t know then what i knew now was depression and i would have went through that cycle for two years two years of my own completely within myself and from friends family teammates and you name it like i kept it within myself because i got back to the kind of the pedestal like figure and especially when you know you’re out in the public eye and you know people see as this idyllic figure living a great life in front of 82 and a half thousand people every couple of weeks in Crow Park you know and i just thought that i had to keep this in and i should have been living an idyllic life but i wasn’t i couldn’t make sense about my head and the things kind of gradually got worse so much so that coming to the end of two years that unfortunately had thought to die by suicide and again this was a hugely scary thing i didn’t want to feel this way but i couldn’t get away from that kind of thought that was inevitably in my head nearly every single day coming towards the end of two years so that would have brought me into then what had transpired then i would have went in and had a panic attack and went to st patrick’s mental house where i spent 11 weeks and 11 very very tough weeks and bought a huge turning point in my life and where i am today and i guess you know long story short fast forward five years now nearly six years and that i’ve come out the other side and i’ve as i said you know spoken quite publicly about it and on all different types of platforms and it’s just the thing for me that whatever i went through i wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy and i uh i i vouch that every single day and that’s why i speak about it publicly and that’s why you know this pedestal like figure that was seen so many years ago and still to this day i can i can capitalize on that kind of in a positive manner in terms of like look i’m this guy as you still see up in this pedestal even though i’m not but some people see me in that shape that you know i can say look i’m going through a difficult time you know so can you and that that’s the kind of even keel that i want to put it on so that’s that’s kind of in a short intense period,

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I would say, as best I can, that’s the journey of my story. And the two years that you said you were kind of suffering in silence, you weren’t speaking about how you were feeling, was there a change in your mood towards your family and your friends?

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Did they notice anything that was a bit different? No, I guess from the start, as I said, it was quite sporadic at the start in terms of how I was feeling when I was feeling down. And my escape, my kind of cope mechanism at that time inevitably was football.

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And that was what kept me going. And the fear of actually letting someone in and letting them know exactly what was going on for me drove me to kind of put up this poker face, this mask, and keep it within myself.

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So right to the very, very end, nearly a year and a half, two years on, it was only towards the very end that I began to show cracks and cracks began to appear in a poker face and the mask wasn’t as strong as it once was.

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And was it a fear of judgment? Like the stigma, I guess, surrounding men’s mental health, especially is that, you know, they’re told to man up and and they feel like maybe they can’t talk about their feelings.

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Was it a fear of judgment or like how did you go from that kind of fear to then talking about it so openly and and not having a fear about talking about it? I guess when you say why it maybe kept it in was that exacting of judgment.

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You know, as I said, I was perceived to be living this ideal of life. And quite frankly, I was I was living a very good life. I was popular amongst friends. I was, as I said, you know, involved in the setup and things in my life, you know, gradually was on an upper curve.

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But little did people know internally, I was I was crumbling. And, you know, the conversation that I was having with myself, the internal dialogue that, you know, I’m I should be living this ideal of life.

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People are seeing this, but I’m in in reality, I’m not. And, you know, I would have said, like, if I would have said to someone, you know, I’m going through a really difficult time, just what’s going on for me.

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I would have said, look, you’re lying, you know, if I was the outside looking in, I would have thought people said I was lying. So that fear factor of that judgment, and especially, as you said, what males in particular, when I’m when I’m in a masculine setting, you know, every nearly every second day with with 30 post players in the dressing room.

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If if I came out and said, look, I’m going through a really difficult time, I just thought it was going to be laughter. And that was the reality of what I was facing, you know. Yeah. And you said then you had your panic attack and you woke up in pots and you were there for 11 weeks.

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What was the sport like afterwards that you received? Yeah, so particularly in St. Pat’s, you know, it was it was the thing of no one actually knew that I was in there for the first couple of weeks. And I was still toying with the fact that I was in a very, very busy under 21 championship campaign with the Dublin footballers.

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And I would have been just after the Leanser final, I would have been awarded man the match. And in between the time of the Leanser final, the All-Ireland semifinal, which would have been our next match.

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The panic attack has had ensued and I’d went in st Pat’s as he said and it would have been a kind of couple of weeks there where I was thinking okay I’m not gonna be here for too long I might be able to come out and you know play the all-around semi-final and it was only when I start really dealing facing up To the stuff that I had subsided for so many years that you know, I very quickly realized like this is not a quick fix And it was then the thinking of Okay,

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the media were then asking I didn’t pay the all-around semi-final which we went ahead and won and they were saying look Washing her to be back. Why wasn’t he playing today and Desi had used the line initially that you know I picked up a knock in the in the lens or final.

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That’s why I wasn’t there and As I said after the semi-final I’d asked as you to come back into the hospital. I said look I want you to go public with This I don’t want any more lies I don’t want you to make excuses for for what I’m really going through at this particular point And as I said, I realized the lucky position that I’m in that so many people look up to me You know in and in what I do in my life that I can have a positive effect And,

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you know, it was a massive weight off my shoulders when I had said to Desi, it wasn’t an easy decision. I sat on it for a couple of days, you know, thinking internally, like the pros and cons. And obviously I came out and asked Desi to announce it publicly.

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And I was absolutely taken aback. It was only when I came out of St. Pat’s because I was out of touch with social media and everything. I closed myself off from that. I was only there after the 11 weeks in St.

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Pat’s. So I was absolutely amazed, like, as in people of all ages come up to me on the streets and messaging me on Instagram, Twitter, whatever it may be. Saying how brave I was and how much state I’ve helped them.

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And, you know, and that’s what I’m saying. You know, I went through the deepest and darkest time in my life. And I am hopefully, you know, helping people not get to that point in their life because I’ve spoken about it and normalised it somewhat in people’s lives.

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I don’t think we realise kind of the amount of people who are probably suffering in silence and who don’t speak about it. So, yeah, I think that’s extremely brave and a great move to come out about it publicly and not keep a eye going on, I guess.

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Was there any negative setbacks when you came out about it publicly? Like, did anyone kind of dismiss it or? I guess when I really kind of came, I obviously came out public with it initially in 2014 and 2015 would have been where I would have started doing my first kind of public speaking events and kind of really coming out with it quite publicly and that nationally enough as, you know, social media,

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so many positives to it, but also has its negatives that I did get a bit of. I would say hatred or I would say negative comments just to keep it in the best possible terms. There was and, you know, I had to realise that I was putting myself out, but I knew for every, you know, one negative comment there was 99 positives to go with that, you know.

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So I just quashed it away and I didn’t pay much attention to it. You know, as I said, these last five, six years, I’ve been, you know, ninety five, ninety nine percent of the positive comments have been absolutely mind blowing.

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and you know there is obviously going to be that negative kind of perception out in the public from whoever it is and that’s absolutely fine. I’ve come to realise that within even the footballing world as well.

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I’m quite used to that sort of thing so I just look at it as upon you know I’m helping so many people that I can just ignore the negative perception of the public. And so did you start then by talking about it first on social media and then the public speaking and then you wrote your blog post was it last year?

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Yes, so I would have then had my first public speaking event. I would have came out of St Pat’s in August 2014 and it would have been the January of 2015 that I would have had my first public speaking event.

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In between that time I had posted for World Mental Health Day and different bits and pieces but nothing too much. So it would have been very much the first time that the public really would have heard my full story and the whole thing was that that would have transpired and come out and do it.

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done a couple of newspaper interviews and radio interviews and whatnot. And then, as I said, I came to the period of when I was deciding to write a blog. So I just just last year, I graduated from from D.C.U.

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and my undergraduate, which is in sports science, and I was always planning to take a year out and I was thinking, you know, I’ve seen people taking a year and get quite lazy in their ways. And I didn’t want to be like that.

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Obviously, I had sport there, but I was thinking what else matters to me in my life? And obviously, that was meant to health. And I was thinking, how can I actually capitalise in this year that I can get my message further afield?

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You know, I’m doing these talks in certain areas within the country to a certain amount of people at a certain time. So it’s quite liberal in terms of who I can reach out to. So I was thinking mental health, everyone’s on social media.

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Everyone’s a click of a way from anything at all on social media. So I was thinking, I’m going to write a blog here. And it was it was a couple of months in the making. I had a had a bit of a help with my good buddy of mine and in in Texco service station where he was actually where I work still.

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I met him there and I stayed friends with him and he’s a former journalist as well. So I was just bouncing ideas off him. I drafted up a couple of a couple of drafts and we went back and forth. And once I was happy with it, I decided to then publish, I think it was December 19th just last year and was when I click publish.

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And that was I was apprehensive, to be quite honest. And because, as I said, I knew the reach or I hoped that, you know, it will get the reach that never did. And I was absolutely blown away by the reach that I did get.

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But I knew because it was out there in the public field, I guess, that it was out there to be, you know, again, those positive negatives and people, you know, from social media aspect or the more inclined to maybe speak their speak their feelings, I guess.

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So I knew I was putting myself out there yet again. But I was very, very happy to do so when I looked in the overall context of it. And in your blog blog post, you spoke about your sister was in Sweden.

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Yes. And kind of it was. Was she the first person that you kind of mentioned that something was going on to? Yeah, so I would have been actually so, you know, my old sister, the reason why I maybe would have confided on her a bit more than I did with my other two sisters, just her being the eldest and, you know, and the thing was, just before I went over to her, I had broken down in front of my mum and dad and I had said to them,

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look, I’m going to a really, really difficult time here. I couldn’t make sense of it in my head. I didn’t know what to say. I just, I just had to say it. And I think they were, they were seeing signs.

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They were seeing cracks begin to appear over the last couple of months previous to me telling them. And as I said that their, their next step was, you know, whatever I was perceived to be hiding that what they, what they thought I was hiding.

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Um, I go over to my sister in Stockholm just after the Lezner final, um, and maybe. shed some light on what was going on for me. So it would be my mom and dad firstly, and then it would have been my sister.

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But I met her with the same news that I met with my mom and dad. There wasn’t anything I was hiding. I didn’t know what was going on. It was a massive cloudiness in my head that I couldn’t make sense of.

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So I confided in her as much as I did with my mom and dad. And that’s where it spiraled down into going with the same paths thereafter. When you went to the same paths, did they say that you aren’t depressed or you’re suffering with depression?

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How was that for you to hear? I guess it was a massive relief, I guess, when I was finally able to make sense of it. So I had a very, very busy couple of days. I met doctors, I met psychologists, I met nurses, whoever else it may be, and having conversations around what was really going on for me in the previous couple of years to this and making sense of it.

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And I guess it was a difficult thing to hear, you know, that you’re depressed. Because I would have had that stigma around it, you know, being labeled, you know, there’s a lot of depression. That’s what I initially thought.

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But when I really thought about it, I was like, it was a massive relief that I’m eventually tackling this and actually able to make sense of some of the thoughts and feelings that I couldn’t make sense of for two years.

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So I guess initially, there was that kind of, I’ve just been labeled of depression. And I would have had that negative stigma behind it. But then when I started educating myself around really what was going on for me and mental health in general, I then, you know, it was that I, you know, took away that stigma that was attached to me at the time and was able to become a lot more comfortable with it and obviously thereafter come out publicly with it.

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And if you were to have maybe a bad day or, you know, a bad week, how would you, what would your coping mechanisms be? Yeah, so that was obviously one of the things that I would have been able to learn.

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So the whole integration back into society and how I deal with when I have a good or bad day and I used to have my good and bad days right up to today, I wouldn’t shy away from the fact that that… And as I said, you know, I would have, I would actually refer to it as like my toolbox.

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I would have built up my toolbox and still learn things that work for me, what does and whatever else it may be. And obviously top of the list is obviously physical exercise. I’ve spoken about it quite often that, you know, physical exercise, the happy endorphins that you release after, you know, a walk, a swim, a match or whatever else it may be.

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But then away from that, I started building my toolbox. I was thinking, you know, I can always rely on physical exercise. Sometimes I will just have to, you know, give my body a rest. So it would be something less strenuous, like, you know, a meal out with my friends, going to the cinema, playing a bit of pool with my friends or going for a walk, listening to a podcast and doing a bit of CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy,

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you know, all these different things, which is less strenuous on the body, but also giving me some sort of relief when I am having these bad days. So I’ve just essentially, my thoughts may not have changed, they’ve obviously subsided somewhat in terms of the severity of them.

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But I’m better able to manage them because I have all these tools. I have the education around what works me, what doesn’t. So those will be the kind of tools that I’ve still building on to this day.

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You know, I’ve I’ve learned so much about myself over the last five, six years after coming out of the same path. So it’s ever growing, I guess. And when you were added to Jim Gavin’s Dublin team in 2013, do you think that the pressure of playing had an effect on your mental health?

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Or was it the opposite? Was it a release to play or a bit of both? I guess it was it was a bit of both. It would have been, you know, I only would have been 18 years of age. I was still in school, you know, and I talked to the lads, you know, only very recently I was talking to Kevin McMillan about another Dublin senior footballer, and he was joking.

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You know, I remember all those years back that, you know, when you were sitting down in his restroom or we had a gym session in the morning, we showered up and we’re going off to work or whatever. You were there in your school uniform, you know.

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So it was it was a very strange thing for them. And I guess it would have been that thing of it was 18 years of age. It was I was still in school and people were coming to me when I was going into school as I got worried with this morning.

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I was just trying to become senior footballers. And it was a release for me. That training was always a release. It never would have been a pressurized environment. But I guess the pressure then of seeing the reaction of people.

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So I would have went into school and people would have been like, oh, he’s just trying to become senior footballers there. And that pressure of having to keep up that mass, that poker face because, as I said, the upper curve that my life was perceived to be going on grew even bigger as I as I was involved and luckily involved in 2013 and thereafter.

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You know, you have to be happy all of the time, essentially, going into school and you can be in a bad mood. Yeah. Well, what did I have to be sad about? You know, that’s what people would have been thinking from the outside.

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So as a country, we’ve made fantastic steps in introducing the topic of mental health. And we obviously have a lot more to do. And where do you see the future in mental health in Ireland going? And what changes do you think still need to happen?

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Well I guess where I’d love for it to be going is obviously the conversation becomes a lot more normalised. As you said we’ve made massive steps and massive headway into normalising or destigmatising mental health but with such a long way to go.

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I guess coinciding with that is you know the services, the lack of services, now that we’re beginning to speak the services are so much you know so far behind. I’ve chatted away to people that they’ve on a couple of months waiting the list you know and I was lucky enough that I was given the support by the Gayle Pears Association that I could get into St Patrick’s Mental Hospital but you know that’s a hugely financial burden on a lot of families and a lot that we wouldn’t as a family be able to head so I was lucky that I had the support there and it shouldn’t be a thing of like you know people break their leg or you know and they go to the hospital and get the treatment straight away.

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In my head you know you’ve a broken mind why shouldn’t that be on the even keel of you know you go in and see on that day. What is exactly wrong with you, you know, so in terms of funding and whatever else the government needs to be to be doing to Pull it on that even keel of you know, a generic hospital where people go in and when I flooze or broken leg As I said, it needs to be on that and those are a couple of the changes I guess that needs to be to be done and I was kind of brainstorming about this The last while and chatting away to people I was thinking when I was back in school,

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you know in the middle of fifth year I was then you know thinking back. What was I doing a fourth year? You know, a lot of people do fourth year. It’s a great year in terms of like, you know The stress and after the junior certain having a bit of an easier time of it But you know, you’re going off to Glendalock you’re going off and doing all these trips and whatnot And I was thinking why don’t we have an education workshop there around the mental health,

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you know? It’s gonna be you’re coming into massive changes where people are going to be going into 56 year massive, you know in their head massive decisions to make in their life Where are they going to college what are they doing after and it’s a massive massive stressful environment I would guess and why aren’t we educating people?

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I would say in secondary school around the subject amount of health We know we do geography history, Irish, whatever else it may be Why can’t we have the subject amount of health and educate people, you know, they may not need that at that particular time in their life But they may may need it a couple years down the line I remember that do not module or whatever it may be and they have the tools there for when it does come to a head That they can deal with it there and then so those are the couple of things that I would say that that would need to be Changed I guess because definitely if you had have had the knowledge To know kind of what depression is you might have recognized it earlier in yourself I guess do you think that is kind of down to anything in particular or I?

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Guess we could go back to even even the thing of like social media is a massive thing and I think everyone would agree upon There’s so much pressure that you know in terms of as I said I post on social media because I know it’s a massive platform that people everyone uses But it also can come across as a negative in terms of you know, people posting a picture of this one snapshot of their life where they are and perceive to be living this idyllic life and it’s anything but but people seeing this one snapshot picture who may be going through a difficult time are thinking why aren’t they as happy as them why aren’t they away on holidays or why aren’t they there and why aren’t they feeling the sort of way and you know beating themselves up so I guess that could be a contributing factor to the depression anxiety rising levels in the country and you know it’ll be a massive thing of obviously to the youth today I’m not only talking about the youth but in general you know where where we’re coming from from a social media platform I guess we need to maybe educate people around that in terms of how to actually deal with you know trolls you you would say on social media and ignoring that kind of filtered stuff that it’s not reality you know it is not reality and and you know getting your head around just like you’re living on put it into perspective,

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you know, you’ve family, friends, whatever it may be, a lot, a lot of positive. You don’t need to take that one snapshot picture and think everything else around my life has gone, gone, gone, gone, gone downward, you know?

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And what was it that encouraged you kind of first to start speaking publicly and doing public talks and interviews and that kind of thing? I guess it was the fact that, as I said, this pedestal-like figure that I wouldn’t have liked to see myself on, that I then realized the impossible, you know, the positive effect that I have or could have on people, you know, whatever I say or do on social media or publicly,

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whatever it may be, it has an effect for it or feel than I really do think. And stemming from the first public speaking event that I was very, very nervous for, I was apprehensive, put my story out there in a bigger platform and it was just, I guess, from the reception that I got from it.

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And, you know, as I mean it in a nice possible way, I got a massive buzz for people coming up to me and saying, you know, you’ve made a massive change in my life, you’ve made me a lot more comfortable about thinking of speaking up and I thought I was the only one going through and a lot of things you said resonated with me.

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And from a selfish point of view, I guess, you know, I would love to have that back, way back in 2011, 2012, 2013 when everything was going on for me for those couple of years. And I guess I’m trying to be that, you know, illuminating a path for people that there is hope, there is a way out, this is the path that I’ve taken and you can take that too, you know.

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So I guess from that point of view, I’ve been very, very proud and coming out publicly and will continue to do so. And the feeling that you got that buzz, is it a different feeling to when you would have won kind of GAA matches?

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Is it a different kind of feeling? Yeah, it is. It was, you know, with the Gaelic matches or whatever else, I guess it’s a euphoric feeling. It is a buzz, it’s hard to, I guess, explain. I would say the buzz that I feel with that people get from my talks or whatever it may be.

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knowing the path that they could potentially be on now when they when they begin to speak up and you know visualizing that path that they may be on with it with the matches it’s it’s the there and then it’s the what I’ve trained so hard for for the you know last six seven eight months whatever it may be for a penultimate game but I guess they are on different levels but with it with it with the same feeling I guess and I seen as well that you’re an ambassador for a pieda house yes it’s fantastic you know the people people pieda house obviously and they’re well known around the country for the amount of work that they do and it’s a tankless task and only you know when I have I’ve been in with them this past year I’ve seen the background kind of work that’s been done and it’s it’s absolutely incredible and you know for me to be asked to be an ambassador and it was a hugely proud moment you know as I said and I’m thankfully out the other side as I said I said I have my good and bad day so I can resonate with people a lot more and a lot more now that I’ve educated myself around the subject so to be an ambassador for Pieda House and to be given that platform to speak out publicly about my experiences has been hugely,

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hugely, I would say humbling over the last kind of six, seven months as I’ve been with them. And if you were to give advice to someone who is struggling, maybe confused, they don’t really know what’s going on and they’re afraid to talk, what kind of advice would you give to someone?

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I would actually say, you know, they’re afraid to talk. I would say talk, you know, and the thing is when I say talk, it’s not about telling your whole story. And that’s the thing for me, if I strip it back to where I actually came from was actually sitting out my mom and dad in a flood of tears.

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I said, look, I’m not going through a very good time here. And I didn’t tell them a whole story. You know, I didn’t have to. And it was the thing of that was my stepping stone to rebuild in my life where I just said, look, I’m going through a difficult time and everything that transpired from there has been absolutely fantastic.

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And I can tell you from firsthand experience that, you know, the path that I’ve taken, even though it’s been bumpy as it always will be, and I won’t shy away from the fact that it will be. But I’m so glad I took that step.

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You know, if I look back to my story, I wish I had spoken up sooner because I can see that path. I’m at the other side. And I’m saying to people, whether it be your mom and dad, whether it be your best friend or your coach or your teacher, whoever it may be, whoever you can confide in and feel comfortable with, just saying something, just a small word that can illuminate the path for you to continue on,

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or sorry, to begin, I guess, a more fulfilling life than they are at this present moment in time. And what is in your future at the moment? What’s going to happen in the next kind of year or so? In the next year, next month, I’m actually going to do a Masters in DCU.

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I’m studying Business Management just a year long and at the minute, I’m about six months through writing a book. Oh, unreal. Yeah, I’ve actually teamed up with Stemming from my blog. O’Brien’s publishers got on to me about six.

Unknown speaker

or seven months ago and on the idea of writing a you know a book around my whole story and you know at the thought at the thought of that you know thinking when I posted a blog the last thing in my head was that I was going to be writing a book you know so I’m about six months through that I’m hoping to be finished all said and done by about November and I’m hoping then for it to be released maybe April 16th the reason why April 16th will be it would mark six years to the day since I went or went into hospital so and for me that would be a hugely humbling experience to think you know six years ago I was at the deepest and darkest point in my life and six years on I’ve released a book that will hopefully and you know help so much more people in this country and further afield than that so that’s essentially where I’m at and even sporting wise I’m away from dumb senior football at this particular moment and I’m trying to get that call back even when it comes and in January so I’m 24,

Unknown speaker

I’m young, I’m hungry and I’m ready to go at the next year and beyond. Excellent, that all sounds really exciting. Thank you very much. We want to thank Shane for sharing his story and for playing a role in the conversations surrounding mental health illnesses.

Unknown speaker

It’s extremely important that we start this discussion and we continue it. Thanks so much for listening to Cevo Talks and tune in next time. you