Staying Positive and Resilient During Tough Times

Speaker 1

Welcome back to SEVA Talks. My name is Dabina Ramkasoon. I am the Health and Wellbeing Director here at SEVA Health, and today I’ll be your host. I’m joined by John Lonergan. John is an author, public speaker, and has worked in the Irish Prison Service for over 42 years, including being the Governor of Mount Joy in Dublin City.

 

Speaker 1

John is a huge believer in social reform and mental health. You can see a huge link between prisons and the workplace, and how both environments can be improved to maximise the positive mental effect and thriving on the individual.

 

Speaker 1

So thank you for joining us today, John.

 

Speaker 2

It’s my pleasure.

 

Speaker 1

things. So John, you know, we’ve had some great chats in the past, and I’ve been so fascinated by your career history. But I’d love for you to maybe just give our listeners a little overview about your career and maybe just briefly telling us what attracted you to work in the prison service to begin with.

 

Speaker 1

A new story is coming up… A new story is coming up… A new story is coming up… A new story is coming up… A new story is coming up…

 

Speaker 2

Yeah, thank you. Well, I’m a native of Tipperary, so I grew up in the countryside, in a little bit called Banchain with Tipperary. I knew nothing in the world about prisons, didn’t even hear of them, except occasionally they might make the news when there was an escape or something.

 

Speaker 2

But other than that, I knew nothing about prisons and I had no ambition in the world, obviously, to join the prison service. But I did so by more by accident than design in 1968, 53 years ago, gone since the last days of March, just gone, which is a long time ago, a different world and a different Ireland in 1968.

 

Speaker 2

And I went into work in the prison system on the basis of just that I noticed or became aware of a public notification by the Civil Service Commission, which is not any longer there either. And I applied and was interviewed and did an exam and eventually was assigned to Limerick prison on the 8th of March 1968.

 

Speaker 2

And I suppose I entered the job on the basis with the naive belief that I had at that stage. I was just 20, so I had much life experience. And I entered the prison service on the belief that all the bad people would be in prison and all the good people would be outside.

 

Speaker 2

And honestly, I wasn’t there a week when I realized, well, that perception and belief is certainly not true. Because what I found there at that stage were mostly men and many of them with learning difficulties, psychiatric difficulties, physical difficulties, all types of difficulties, and maybe one or two serious criminals mixed amongst them.

 

Speaker 2

So I realized almost instantly that prisons were being used very much as dumping grounds and dumping institutions for misfits and social rejects in society rather than bad, dangerous people. And so I started, I suppose, to learn almost from that day onwards, that life wasn’t as black and white as you think it is.

 

Speaker 2

And being judgmental was definitely a dangerous thing to do. And I did try to practice that for the rest of the 42 years I spent in prison, because I learned that very early on, that being judgmental was definitely not something you could do and participate in and still do your job because of all the things you don’t know about people.

 

Speaker 2

And so then after that, I spent quite a number of years early on, three years in Limerick, then I went to an open center in Shangana Castle in Ghana as well. But it was an open center which completely changed the dynamic of a prison.

 

Speaker 2

Closed prisons operate on the dynamic of mistrust. We’ll talk about mistrust later on because that’s a big issue in relation to the well-being and how people feel it and all that sort of thing. And if you’re not aware you are in the workplace or at home, if there’s a huge element of mistrust, well, that is damaging to your well-being in every aspect, but certainly your mental well-being.

 

Speaker 2

So the open center concept is the complete opposite of that because there were no boundary fences, no walls, no barriers, physical barriers. So the person was young people, they were for 16 to 21 year olds, they were transferred there on the basis of trust.

 

Speaker 2

So they stayed there because they agreed to stay there rather than they were made or physically contained there. And I learned a lot as well about young men from that experience. And then the other experience that I have to mention is I was subsequently promoted to different grades and I suppose the next major experience I had was I had a job as an assistant director of Lachan House which was an industrial school at that time in the late 1970s for children between the ages of 12 and 16.

 

Speaker 2

And the department of education failed in its job to look after children that were in need of some type of secure detention and they were handed over for responsibility around the responsibility of the Lachan House in Black Lion to look after them.

 

Speaker 2

And that was an amazing experience of what I suppose working with children and that had been deprived of everything always in life. And they weren’t bad people at all or bad young people, they were simply just wild and had no structures and no boundaries.

 

Speaker 2

And that’s where I became very aware of the importance of boundaries but mainly boundaries by agreement rather than boundaries by imposition and there’s a huge difference. And Irish society would have been built on and developed over many decades on the basis of imposing boundaries on people rather than getting their agreement and involvement in it.

 

Speaker 2

And that was an amazing experience. And then in 1984 I was appointed governor of Mount Joy. I spent four years as governor of Mount Joy. Then they asked me to go to the department of justice to go to Port Security Prison which I did.

 

Speaker 2

I was asked to go for two years but I actually stayed for four years and then I went back to Mount Joy and spent another 18 years in Mount Joy. So I spent 27 years in total as a governor, 23 in Mount Joy and four in Port Lige and I retired then in 2010.

 

Speaker 2

So I suppose to summarize then, I learned almost everything I know from that experience of working in prison. Very unique experience but a very valuable experience that most people don’t have because of the dynamics as I said of prison where people are confined against their will rather than and so the whole dynamic all the time and the challenge was to try to get some growth and development into which to help people grow and develop in that environment of mistrust and negativity.

 

Speaker 2

And this was a challenge but it’s amazing some of the things that worked very well and we can talk about some of those later on if you wish.

 

Speaker 1

Yeah that would be great because I’m just thinking like you have so much experience you know viewing the full spectrum of life you’ve seen you know how when things go well how you know your prisoners can be reformed how they might just need some of those boundaries put in place the respect the care and also the other side of you know children being brought up in poverty you know mental health illness and maybe parents have had mental health illness psychiatric illness themselves and seeing them come through the prison service as you mentioned and I was just going to say when you were touching on about you know how you reform prisoners or you know give them that care to make them think a bit bigger beyond the walls which are imposed around them how how was it you know when you saw prisoners come in and that contrast between the prisoners who maybe got on with the with the kind of adopted the mindset of being institutionalized versus the prisoners who who had that that eye-opening to say maybe I don’t want my life to be this way maybe there’s another option I’m just interested to hear about that perspective on the institutionalization and maybe if there are any parallels that you’ve seen in general life and in workplace in general

 

Speaker 2

Yeah, like, first of all, there is a huge connection between what happens in normal life and what happens in prison. And when I used to say this, when I was working, a lot of people found it sort of strange or funny or what not.

 

Speaker 2

And because they didn’t. But what I mean, I suppose one of the things I used to always say and realize from the early stages, prisons are all about people. They’re not about institutions. They’re not about, you know, security.

 

Speaker 2

They’re actually about people, people who work there and the people who are confined there. And that was a big fundamental basis of my work and philosophy was that we’re talking about people now. And I also said, you know, way back, I, you know, publicly used to make a lot of talk publicly, a lot of the time, mainly to try to convey the picture, a picture and a message out to the general public.

 

Speaker 2

I said very early on in my career, you know, because prisoners are often referred to as them by mainstream society, them. Well, they’re not them at all. They’re us. They’re very much us. You know, they grew up in our houses and our streets.

 

Speaker 2

They were educated or not in our schools. And so they’re all part of us. And that was the first thing that I thought was, you know, it was very easy to say them. And that does exonerate us from any responsibility.

 

Speaker 2

And it’s not our fault. Well, it is actually we all have a responsibility to why people end up in prison and why people are disconnected and alienated. So that was very much, you know, to understand that as well about people.

 

Speaker 2

I suppose the other thing that there’s a huge connection, in my view, with any management or any workplace or anybody that’s working with other people. And that is to have as your fundamental principle, you know, and work off the principle of always showing respect.

 

Speaker 2

And that is very challenging in prison because I mentioned earlier on about the dangers of being judgmental. And I had a great battle with staff and with lots of people, mainly with staff, about that to try to encourage them not to be judgmental.

 

Speaker 2

Like, oh, he’s a rapist. So we want nothing to do with him. But he’s OK because he’s only in for an embezzlement. Now he could, you know, once you go down that road of well, well, he’s one and he’s somehow she’s decent.

 

Speaker 2

She’s that she’s a child neglect. Oh, my God. But she’s only a misfortune. And once you go that road, then you’re absolutely disaster. And that applies in the workplace as well, being judgmental and not showing respect.

 

Speaker 2

And the fundamental philosophy was about showing respect. And and I used to try to do that in every in indeed, I used to discriminate in a way in favor of those in prison because my philosophy was for staff and for everybody else, we all had options, the option of leaving gone.

 

Speaker 2

But prisoners had no options. They were confined that therefore they had no way of being relieved of this. And the other thing I suppose about it was that I found it to work absolutely 100 percent to the extent that I can say now, 10 years after retiring, that I’ve so far never met an expert that has been abusive or disrespectful or actually the opposite, the very, very opposite.

 

Speaker 2

In their hundreds, I meet them on the streets of Dublin and Cork and Limerick in particular, the bigger cities and towns when I go out or when I’m going social anywhere. I meet them in their hundreds.

 

Speaker 2

And as I said to a man and a woman, and that is based on that very fundamental thing. And that’s the start of it. Then the next point I make is, you know, I learned as well, you cannot reform anybody else.

 

Speaker 2

So don’t even think about it. What you have to do is I learned, I shared a little bit of philosophy with you because it’s not mine. It was written, they came, it was written 600 years before Christ. Now, whether it was or it wasn’t, doesn’t matter.

 

Speaker 2

But it was written by a Chinese and it was fantastic philosophy. And it was about that, about working with people and kind of get the best out of them. And it goes something like this. Go to the people, live with them, love them.

 

Speaker 2

Now, that’s very important. And it’s not, as you know, a romantic love. It’s because of what’s in love. It’s about respect. It’s about acceptance. It’s about taking an interest in, being supportive of, being caring of.

 

Speaker 2

So all the principles, so go to the people, live with them, love them, start with what they have, build with what they know. But when the work is done, the task accomplished, the people will say, we’ve done this ourselves.

 

Speaker 2

I think that’s fantastic. So it’s about working with them, encouraging them, helping them, but also accepting them where they’re at and not trying to impose anything with them. So to do that, then you have to have great patience.

 

Speaker 2

You must have great belief. And I suppose for me, one of the things that I noticed, and this would be very connected with the workspace as well. A lot of people have huge personal ability, but they were unaware of it.

 

Speaker 2

And secondly, they had no confidence. And towards the end of my time in prison, I was saying the greatest single gift and help you can give any other human being is to build their confidence if it happens to be low and their self-esteem because confidence opens so many doors and it gives you that ability to put yourself forward.

 

Speaker 2

So, and self-confidence I found was almost non-existent in prison. Would you believe it’s non-existent? Some of the most talented people had no self-belief at all. And they felt they were useless and worthless because they were indoctrinated with that message from childhood.

 

Speaker 2

And because us as a society, made sure that they were alienated in communities where they had no connection with mainstream, were poorly educated, they were cut off from the mainstream. And then so, and I asked that question because when I looked at the prison population, which I did in 1985, after being a pint of bone joint, I discovered that 97% of the people came from the two lowest socioeconomic groups.

 

Speaker 2

And I discovered with research with the late Dr. Paula Mahoney that six tiny little areas in Dublin city, for instance, supplied 75% of all Dublin border prisoners were the most poverty-stricken areas.

 

Speaker 2

So there was a direct connection between social alienation and poverty and imprisonment. And I suppose it was that then. And so the biggest single thing I would say, if you said to me, what’s the biggest single thing you can do to help people to reform or to rehabilitate themselves or something, I would say in respect, first of all, show them respect and encouragement.

 

Speaker 2

It’s really all about encouragement, that consistent message, you know, I know, I believe in you, I know you can do it, give it a go, keep trying, come back again. That is a message I would be saying is very much true in the workplaces where that we sometimes we dismiss people, we ignore them or we criticize them.

 

Speaker 2

And that was the final thing I’d say on that kind. The one thing I realized that doesn’t help any human being and it certainly didn’t help any prisoner. And that was criticism. You know, be quiet because they were used to criticism.

 

Speaker 2

Punishment and criticism was the stuff they were lived on. That was their oxygen almost. And so, and I discovered very, they just didn’t take any notice of it. They expected to be criticized. And if you expect to be criticized and when you’re criticized in, it certainly doesn’t leave any mark on you, except to confirm your negative self-taught in the first place.

 

Speaker 2

So it’s so important to have that, to have that message constantly going out and repeating it and putting it into practice. There was no use talking about it. You have to live it as well. And that means that you recognize when people make an effort and you reward them in whatever way.

 

Speaker 2

And the best reward of all, most times, is giving praise and given credit. I think my message to the employers as well, because lots of people that are high powered, they take credit, but they’re not very good at giving credit.

 

Speaker 2

And I would say praise and giving credit to people is one of the greatest motivators. And it does make a huge difference to their wellbeing as well. Because people who feel well about themselves, should they are going to be 20 times better on employees than the person who feels very bad about himself.

 

Speaker 1

You’ve touched on so many interesting points there and the point around self-confidence and self-belief and linking that to recognition and praise in the workplace and the wider societal and community factors, I think we’re all primed for negativity and we’re all ready to kind of say, oh yeah, what’s another thing I might not have done so well this time?

 

Speaker 1

And you can see it in an individual when you give praise, how they face their body language everything changes. And what I’m thinking of is in your book, The Governor, you speak, I think it is in the open prisons, you had the garden where you had the prisoners, you know, take ownership and create that lovely little garden patch and even the kind of forward-thinking ideas that you had at the time with the drama school and how that helped to build confidence and self-belief to say,

 

Speaker 1

oh, maybe I do have a talent, maybe I do have a skill, maybe I do have another way of expressing myself rather than the old behaviors which I’ve learned. Can you talk a little bit about how, you know, seeing the prisoners, you know, go through that process?

 

Speaker 1

And I know the drama schools, the drama yearly event was very successful from the book.

 

Speaker 2

No, I suppose one of the things I’d say, because this is very much also going to be trying to link it in with outside employers and people who would be involved in other things, I would say that in terms of one of the things that the drama was indirectly connected to this because we brought in the public, we invited in the public on that principle that I said earlier on, they’re your prisoners, they’re your prisons,

 

Speaker 2

let’s come in and see them in a positive way. And that was a lot of thinking behind the drama. These were all people that were constantly criticized and ostracized and condemned. And now I was trying to show them in a positive way.

 

Speaker 2

I also wanted to show their families, to let their families see them in a positive way. So that’s when they were acting up on the stage and when they were absolutely you know, broad, you know, broadway levels of talent on that stage or in Irish terms, the Abbey standards of the Abbey Theatre standards of acting.

 

Speaker 2

That’s a family would come in a mother and a father or a partner or a child and see that person who was condemned last year on the newspapers and the television. And he is now he or she in a very positive thing.

 

Speaker 2

And the link I was making was that for employers, anything you could, players can do to link with local communities and to do some work in local communities to send out the message that we’re bigger than just production or we are bigger than just ourselves, that we have an interest in the local community.

 

Speaker 2

That gives people, workers and people a huge lift because they see themselves as contributing to something else. And that was part and parcel of the drama project. I would so strongly recommend drama.

 

Speaker 2

I mean, I’m always seeing it in social disadvantage areas. When you look at these facilities and amenities, they usually have none, which is, you know, in some ways, it’s funny, funny to think that we think as a society, and this is where I said, oh, we think that it’s okay to have children born into those areas.

 

Speaker 2

And then we expect them when they’re 18 or 19 or 20, when they’re adults, why are you behaving like that? We never ask ourselves, did we actually contribute by not providing them with the opportunities to grow to their pretension?

 

Speaker 2

What I said, and what I found in prison were quite a significant number of very, very intelligent, uniquely talented people. The sadness was they never even recognized that talent, not alone, the day not recognized it, but nobody else did either.

 

Speaker 2

So because we all depend on other people as well to recognize talent. And I’d be saying this regularly to employers all the time, be looking out for that hidden talent that’s within people, because lots of people go through life and their talent is never recognized their real talent.

 

Speaker 2

And it’s a very much a part of that. And that’s what the drama was about doing. It was also introducing teamwork, because the one thing you learn on the stage is you depend on everybody else. And if you’re not, you know, the first next person hasn’t his lines or her lines ready, and he’s ready to do whatever it is, doesn’t happen, and the proper lighting or the props or whatever, you will absolutely collapse.

 

Speaker 2

So they learn teamwork, which is something, by the way, that they had no concept of, they had no concept. And so and I’m supporting one another, and all that, all the dynamics that go into that was fascinating.

 

Speaker 2

It was just, and there were more, and you know, it’s easy to say this, you know, from somebody saying this, but I’m absolutely, I know this is true. It was life changing for many prisoners. And so a lot of life changing things happen, not by design, more by accident in the sense that it’s like that, you know, rising tides lift all boats, like if you’re involved in something like that, you you’re not directly doing it to,

 

Speaker 2

you know, to change a life, but because of it, people’s lives change. And I knew several people who never look back ever for the rest of their lives as a direct result of the drama. So the drama was, and one other thing which was, I have to mention as well, about the well being of people, and especially with the producers, the people who came in to produce, they were all outsiders.

 

Speaker 2

And we had, we had, you know, three main producers that came in over the years to produce. And they all had a philosophy that, you know, when people were asked to put their names forward for casting and for, you know, roles in the play, they all had this belief or this philosophy that they try and not reject anybody, because prisoners were so used to be rejected.

 

Speaker 2

And again, back to employers and back to life, there’s nothing more hurtful for another human being than rejection. There is no question about that, in my view, to be rejected. And we often do that unconsciously, even reject people.

 

Speaker 2

And that creates a lot of unemployment. And in, you know, in industry and in different ways, people are often rejected. And the philosophy of not rejecting. So if a person didn’t make, you know, a cast for a role, maybe they got some little job backstage, or maybe even, I remember one case, which was amazing altogether, the woman concerned, you know, was a very short term person, and she didn’t get any part of that,

 

Speaker 2

but they put her just making the tea for the cast and sweeping, cleaning the floor, little things like that. Eventually, because one of the main characters withdrew from the play at the chart notice, and she was asked to go on, and she brought the house down.

 

Speaker 2

She was amazing. Such an extent, Maggie was her name, and Maggie was so good that when she was in the play, wasn’t she due for release on the Saturday, and the play was going on to the following Tuesday.

 

Speaker 2

She volunteered to stay, which she did in prison in the Dawkins Center in Mount John for the three extra days to finish her time on the stage. And one of the staff said to me on the on the Wednesday morning when she was released in three days late, and she said you should see her leave in this morning, she danced out the gaze.

 

Speaker 2

Now how can you measure the value of that to Maggie?

 

Speaker 1

Mm-hmm.

 

Speaker 2

simple drama in a prison of all places. And so I suppose I’d be just saying that, you know, providing the vehicle, sometimes the facilities, the environment for people and human beings, many of them will grow in that environment.

 

Speaker 2

And then it has, rather than setting out that I’m going to reform you, by putting in place facilities and being thinking about the things that will help people to grow. The same with our work parties, they were exactly the same, going out to do the gardens for the elderly in the nursing homes, are building community centres, which we had a work party doing.

 

Speaker 2

They built about 27 communities in all around Dublin in the poorer areas. The satisfaction of doing that, going out every day, working in the community. I remember we had a work party up in Blanche’s town, and in one of the units where the older people were residents.

 

Speaker 2

Not alone did they do an amazing garden there. But their friendship and their relationship with the older people that were as residents there, that was amazing. To such an extent that the residents used to look forward to the van arriving every morning, and the guys going in and chatting for us, and then going out and doing the garden, or pushing somebody around in a wheelchair for half an hour.

 

Speaker 2

That sort of, listen, you couldn’t measure the value of that. And that’s the sort of stuff tailored to suit any workplace. They’re the sort of little things that can change lives and make people. And of course, the happier you have people, the better, obviously, the happier they are, the better the production, the better the environment, and the well-being feelings of everyone else as well.

 

Speaker 2

So there’s tremendous potential in all those sorts of things. And I suppose taking risks as well. I would be saying to people, you take risks because lots of people want to play safe. And I wouldn’t do that, or I couldn’t do that, or I wouldn’t do that.

 

Speaker 2

And there’s tremendous satisfaction in taking risks, because when they pay off, and by the way, most times they do. That was my experience anyway. You know, we had occasions back when I was asked first, when we do a live midnight, a Christmas midnight mass from the women’s prison, most people, oh, gee, live television, they’re all right.

 

Speaker 2

They’ll all go crazy. They’ll all protest. And I said, no way. I bet they won’t. And they didn’t. We did it on two different occasions. And on both occasions, the prisoners were absolutely amazing, even though it was being streamed out live from the prison.

 

Speaker 2

So afterwards, then what do people say? Well, that was fantastic. So you have to take some risks. And sometimes you lose, and you have to say, take it on the chin, say, right, that didn’t work. But I would say to my employers, you have to take risks.

 

Speaker 2

You have to do new things, just because something was happening for the last 30 years and worked okay. Maybe something new will stimulate new interest and give people new energy. And because change, while we resisted in some ways, change is also exciting.

 

Speaker 1

Oh, definitely. And I think you’re touching on again, so many different topics that you know, that community, the purpose, the meaning, you know, we do there’s that the term, you know, corporate social responsibility and some employers will release their employees for the, you know, a number of days a year to engage in the community to give back.

 

Speaker 1

And having been part of that myself in in previous employment as well. It is, it’s just lifting your head up above the building that you’re coming into every day, taking a look outside of the community.

 

Speaker 1

And one of the things that when when you’re speaking about the mass, the midnight mass for the women’s prison, it’s that sense of pride in developing that pride and of who you are, and then having that out in the community as well.

 

Speaker 1

And I think that’s one thing, you know, that as a society, you know, we’ve started to kind of pull in a little bit closer, you know, it’s more about the individual rather than the community, but we’re seeing those cracks appear.

 

Speaker 1

You know, that model doesn’t isn’t necessarily the best for us, or the way that we’re wired to be as healthy as we can be, you know, we know it’s the strong foundations of community and purpose and meaning which really drive our well being.

 

Speaker 1

So it’s great hearing that and I think that’s a real message to kind of take home to anyone who’s listening and you don’t need to be in management, you can just have a non managerial role come up with an idea that you know is going to give some benefit to your immediate team.

 

Speaker 1

And, you know, we’re looking at what’s happening with the pandemic, you know, a lot of communities, well the whole community needs that additional support there might be, you know, additional things that can be done.

 

Speaker 1

And, you know, once when things are achieved, and, you know, by a large group of people you see how that changes everyone just as you were speaking there about the the drama productions, you know, it’s that sense of them.

 

Speaker 1

The sum is greater than the parts, you know, all of that that that comes together in that community environment. So, I was going to just come back you took to the point you were talking about or we’re going to talk about around mistrust and how that plays out in workplaces and and well being subsequent well being when there’s a when there’s a level of mistrust are you able to talk a little bit more on your views about that.

 

Speaker 2

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because I became aware of that very quickly as well, of the whole thing of you know, because I believe that, you know, for personal development, there has to be a significant element of trust, because you, you what you’re mostly saying to the person, I believe in you, and I trust you to do the best you can, and all that sort of stuff.

 

Speaker 2

So prisons then became environments, and they are today, they haven’t changed. And because all the physical stuff isn’t there for a phone back, I mean, if I trust somebody, I highly put people all around them, and I only lock them in, not lock inside one door, but lock them inside several doors, and surround the place with all sorts of security, search them regularly, and all checking them, counting them,

 

Speaker 2

all sorts of things that are all insulting to the human being that absolutely sure anyone could understand that that, you know, it’s totally you, anything and everything that you’re constantly being watched, monitored, not for positive reasons, but for negative reasons.

 

Speaker 2

So then to try to balance that off, or I’m trying to help the individual to grow and develop is a very challenging thing, but it’s equally in the workplace again, where there’s now I understand that there’s a need for overall superpowers, of course, that you are not naive, but there’s a number of different ways of doing it.

 

Speaker 2

And you do want to have, you know, all the time to be in their face and to be in obviously quite clearly demonstrating and demonstrating that you’re actually you don’t trust a person. And I believe that in that.

 

Speaker 2

So in prison, I suppose one of the measurements that I put down as the greatest measurement for a manager now, and for anyone down along at different levels, including at home, the real measurement to know if you’re operating in an environment of trust, what happens when you’re not there?

 

Speaker 2

that’s the ultimate test. If you’re away for the day off, or if you’re out sick, or if you’re on holidays, how does your organization operates while you’re away? And, and the real litmus test is if it operates better than when you’re there, then you’re winning.

 

Speaker 2

Now, some managers and some people in authority would take that for an insult. That is the greatest compliment that you can get. You see, if the place operates better when you’re away than when you’re there, what it means is is that your staff are working are, you know, and are more conscientious and determined that they won’t let you down.

 

Speaker 2

I always remember right here, and the famous soccer player, I mentioned the United soccer player, a court man. I always remember him talking about Ferguson, his manager. And he said, you know, when he had a bad game or a bad first half, when he went into the dressing room, he said, Ferguson, all he had to do was look in his direction.

 

Speaker 2

And he knew, I have left you down today. I haven’t done my best. And he said, I always went out in the second half to say, well, I rectify that. He said he had to say nothing. But they asked him, what did he say?

 

Speaker 2

He said, he said nothing. He just looked. And the look alone was enough for Keene. And that’s what it’s about. It’s about that thing of respecting the person and saying, I’m going to do my best for you.

 

Speaker 2

And, and that’s created by delegation in spirit. I found that well, by the way, I inherited the prison service when there was no delegation. And I can say that I’m saying that humbly now, that doesn’t matter to me at my age.

 

Speaker 2

But I did inherit an organization or an institution that had no delegation. Everything stayed with the government, even to the nitty gritty of authorizing the changing of a electric bulb in a cell was signed by the governor.

 

Speaker 2

Crazy stuff. Yeah. And people, but what happened was, nobody had responsibility. Nobody’s, they all passed the book up along. And at the end of the day, and so one of the one of the greatest cultural things in the prison was that every decision that was made that was unpopular was always attributed to the governor.

 

Speaker 2

The governor said, it wasn’t me as the supervisor or the manager on the floor. No, no, no. The governor said it. And that was one of the things that I used to try to get out there. No, no, no, no. Because you’re, you’re making that decision, not me.

 

Speaker 2

And so delegation. And I also found, by the way, that for people, sometimes you had a member of staff and he or she wouldn’t be really putting the work in it. And people would, you know, you get the name, you get the name of someone, you couldn’t put him in charge of anything.

 

Speaker 2

She’s useless. You know, this type that people give to people. And sometimes people are happy with that title. So I have no responsibility now. So I get on fine. My life will have nothing to do. I found the very opposite.

 

Speaker 2

I found that the answer to that was to bring that person in, explain to them what you and give them specific responsibility and say, now you are responsible for this. And I, you know, and you give them whatever help, of course you do.

 

Speaker 2

You don’t set them up to do, to set them up to fail. You set them up to succeed. What you say to them, what you are responsible for this. And I found, honestly, revolutionary changing people. And so, I mean, I, you know, I could tell several stories of amazing changing people.

 

Speaker 2

People that were regarded as absolutely wisters, I understand. And when they got this one, and the other secret was to give them work that they enjoyed or they were good at. Sometimes people, you know, they’re round pegs in square holes.

 

Speaker 2

And they’re very talented in one area, but they’re working in a complete opposite area. And they have no talent for that. And everything is towards all these things, delegation, giving people responsibility, and then giving them recognition.

 

Speaker 2

Recognition is huge. You know, when you’re out saying and talking to people, or when you’re going around, and there’s nothing better, by the way, for a person’s feeling than third party endorsement. It’s fantastic, third party done.

 

Speaker 2

That is somebody else saying to you, I heard you were brilliant yesterday. And, or I heard at the meeting yesterday, that you have done fantastic work. Well, that puts people up on a pedestal, like, they have the nice with themselves.

 

Speaker 2

And that’s what I was saying, that’s, so that’s such a thought that you’re building up and trying to counteract. So, if you operate, even in an environment of mistrust, if you operate on the with the principle on the principle of, of treating people with respect, that certainly reduces the damage of mistrust.

 

Speaker 2

Relationships are also huge. If you can develop relationships with people, and professional relationships, but very, very genuine relationships with the person that’s also has a great, you know, so, for instance, in education, teachers, according to the prisons were regarded by the prisoners as not efficient staff that because they came in from outside, and they enjoyed a tremendous relief chaplains always in the prison had amazing relationship with the prison because they were associated with,

 

Speaker 2

with the non authority, you know, role of the prison, they were able to work in that environment very well because when we, when we asked the prisoners in Mount Jai, who do you trust the most, the chaplains worn hands down.

 

Speaker 2

And, and, and put the air in that, that’s because the, I suppose the two things that the chaplains put and the teachers put the chapters in particular, the two things that this is good for our employers as well and for people in management and workplace.

 

Speaker 2

The two things that they came out, head and shoulders over the middle was was non judgmental we started at the beginning. So the chaplain wasn’t asking the guy, what are you in for, and what crime did you commit, you know, are you a murderer Oh my god.

 

Speaker 2

They couldn’t care less, what you were in for, they had no interest, what you were in for, they were interested in you as the human being. And that was huge. And the second thing was confidentiality.

 

Speaker 2

I know I can talk to the chaplain, and it will stay with the chat. And they are the two huge things that I would say counteract the environment of the atmosphere of Mr. Trump’s confidentiality and non judgmental stuff.

 

Speaker 1

Two things, you know, we can definitely take into the workplace wherever we’re working, you know, how are we speaking about others? Is there, you know, a sense of discretion around, you know, people who may need to share any kind of problems that are coming up, any difficulties that they’re having in their role, you know, but that bit about being human is probably, you know, going to be the most important thing,

 

Speaker 1

especially when we’re thinking about what’s happening on the kind of global platform. And we’re all like, we’re chatting to each other through a screen right now. And, you know, how do you convey that sense of, you know, I’m interested in you and what you’re saying, and bringing that into your work meetings consistently.

 

Speaker 1

I think that’s probably, you know, a challenge which will all rise to and will adapt. And many of us have both the skills there to evolve them for the online working platform. And we’ve had a year of it now, so we should, we should be getting there.

 

Speaker 1

But I think, you know, there are still going to be challenges within the workplace, especially fast paced workplaces where it might become more task focused, the interactions may have a slight vulnerability to slide into the task focused conversations, you know, what do I need to get from you?

 

Speaker 1

What do you need to get from me? How do we complete this task? Whereas kind of slowing it down and taking that time, you know, the water cooler conversations, or you know, you’re walking from one place to another, and you’re just talking about general things that aren’t in relation to anything about work.

 

Speaker 1

And having that contact, that connection with that person on a more deeper personal level, is going to be the thing which really needs to be nurtured on this remote working in this remote working world.

 

Speaker 1

I’m interested to know throughout all your experiences with working with whether it’s the prisoners or your own staff, or you know, anyone, you know, has there been times when you felt like it’s too hard, it’s that you felt like your faith was waning?

 

Speaker 1

And because you spoke earlier about the perceptions that other people may have of prisoners and saying, well, they’re not them, they’re actually part of us, you know, it’s a whole community. Were there any times when you kind of felt like you were bringing quite an authentic, you know, this is the way I treat people, this is the way I want others to be treated, this is the way they should be treated?

 

Speaker 1

And you know, did you ever have kind of pushed back to say no, that shouldn’t be the way? And how did you manage that? How did you manage your own well being and your own kind of sentiment and knowing that what you were doing was right for the people versus a different perspective?

 

Speaker 2

Yeah, a huge, I mean, it’s a huge complex issue as well. And just before I answer that, I just wanted to say because we talked about confidentiality, I just want to say one thing about confidentiality and all that goes with it.

 

Speaker 2

I’m shown respect and be non judgment. One of the, again, fundamental philosophy that I had was I never involve myself in any gossip whatsoever in the workplace. None. And nobody ever came to my office with gossip for a very reason, they wouldn’t have been entertained.

 

Speaker 2

So I didn’t mind what was being said at the union meeting. Because naturally, the governor being the boss would have been absolutely criticized. And I didn’t want to know I said that’s their right. Let them out.

 

Speaker 2

So I’d be saying to people don’t entertain gossip, because if you gossip, you shall be gossiped about. And gossip is so damaging to people’s well being and all that. So that was very important. Second thing was, I think, is very important that you believe in your values and your principles and you live by them.

 

Speaker 2

You live by them, the truth, honesty, shown respect, decency, kindness, be kind to people no matter what, even your enemies in inverted commas, the ones that are difficult, and with that as staff on I did that.

 

Speaker 2

So when somebody was in trouble, it didn’t matter who they were, you absolutely treat something very same as the person you got on very well. So in other words, you don’t allow any personal sort of relationship things to judge, to decide and to, you know, to, in some way, influence your decision making, you decide on the basis of principles that you live by, honesty, truth, integrity, decency, show respect,

 

Speaker 2

and you use those values every time. It doesn’t matter whether the most popular or unpopular. I used to say, and I try to practice that, not alone, best that I could 100% if I could, and I would have no favorites, don’t have favorite people, because if you have favorites in your organization, you’re also going to create a whole lot of mistrust and a whole lot of bitterness and jealousy and all that sort of stuff.

 

Speaker 2

So there’s a whole lot of dynamics that are important to try. Don’t set out to be popular or unpopular, because again, some people do that. Some people, I heard people boasting that the staff hate me.

 

Speaker 2

How can you be effective if the staff hate, or then other people set out to be the most popular person? You don’t do either. You set out to do your job. And that’s the other thing about show respect, is the status that a job has does not raise the status of the person.

 

Speaker 2

The person is still a basic human being, and he or she should be treated like that. They shouldn’t be put up on a pedestal because they’re a governor, or they’re the manager, or they’re the director.

 

Speaker 2

They’re a human being, the same as you and I, but we’re doing a different job. It’s the job that’s open to speak, not the human being. And that’s why some people really abuse that, because they think because they have a high power job, that they’re high power themselves, but they’re not.

 

Speaker 2

They’re just fundamentally human beings. And if they think like that, and operate like that, they’re going to connect to people. And that’s very, for me, very, very significant. How you do your job is how you feel.

 

Speaker 2

But so for me, I believe in the values and the principles that I live by or that I’ve promoted. And on that basis, then that, so I must say, gosh, I can say this, that for the 42 years that I worked there, I never went in one day disillusioned, or I never went in one day in that forum, or I never went in one day saying, Jesus, I hope I can come here today.

 

Speaker 2

And I think that’s part of it. I think if you love what you’re doing in that sense, and that you’re engrossed in it, a very important part of being absolutely crucial for me, for my philosophy, but you leave the job in the job when you come out the gate.

 

Speaker 1

I was going to ask you about this because we’ve spoken about this before and I love your perspective on this so yeah like work-life balance well you know what is exactly that leave the job whereas I know this is one of your techniques for managing your own world.

 

Speaker 2

I mean I would say of all the things even before you go into what you know work and life balances and they’re all very important psychologically and I would say you know there’s two dimensions to it leave your family and your private life at home and leave your job in the job and that’s a discipline and it is a discipline and you have to practice this and you have to and when you start thinking going home in the car about the job you say turn on music and I’m not going there and the same at night and I said this before that you know my family knew what I worked I never just goes to work ever when I came home and you know I was involved in other things sport and coaching and all and I found all those things brilliant because they completely took you out of that environment and of course then in the morning you went in totally refreshed and totally knew again and you hadn’t all this stuff in your head burning away your all your energy thinking about a planning and people some people you know think that that doesn’t that doesn’t mean anything it means it’s huge enough because it’s about enthusiasm like you’re not just going through the motions every day you’re going because you’re alive and you’re and people notice that so you know people notice that that you know you’re this person is alive and this person is alert and and so example is huge and you know I believe it’s a lot bigger and more significant than people think it is because you know it’s like parents sometimes thinking that their children doesn’t notice they notice everything they know every single thing so do staff they notice every single thing you do so I just maybe shared this with you I was down after retiring about five or six years ago down the west of Ireland one night and I was giving a talk to the community and the one person in the community at the end asked me they said what is your legacy in relation to prisons and I push up which I honestly believe I said well I don’t think I have a legacy and you know I did my stuff I did what I thought was rise and I got 42 years ago at it and I really you know got great satisfaction out of it and both in terms of a legacy I said I doubt there’s any such thing as a legacy and this guy stood up and he said well you don’t know me well I’m working in the prison service for the last number of years and he said I’m not working in Mount Jive I’m working in Cassie Rea prison and he said I just want to tell you that you have a legacy actually and you’re still mentioned regularly in relation to the way you the philosophy you had well so that’s so I wasn’t aware of that what he was and so I’m just saying to you know to employers like don’t underestimate how significant your example is and you do the things that you know treat people properly there’s a great chance that all the other people working with you will treat people properly and so that all these things and so therefore it is very important that you mind yourself this is quite so important in the old days we couldn’t care less about staff and I can honestly say that at the beginning you know at the very beginning I didn’t realize how significant staff are but your organization is a whole totally dependent on your staff and how they are and if they are feeling well and so that’s why you know leaving the job behind you leaving your family at home sleep the very basics that everyone talks about you know the quality of sleep is so important dice is so important and exercise of all the things I’d be saying to people you know I’ve done a huge amount of exercise all my life and I’m still doing it and I found that you know come home in the evening and go for a run of seven or eight miles amazing you come back have a shower so you’re as fresh as a deity again all your day’s stuff is gone and so that is how you mind yourself in some way you leave the job in the job and you leave home at home when you’re at home and then you try to balance things that you have an interest in or that takes you away completely mentally from that environment that can be very demanding and very very stressful if you are allowed to be stressful and I believe that as well because you yeah I’d be saying to people look if the job is causing you that much stress you know in the long term you’re not alone and you’re damaging yourself but you’re damaging everybody else’s way and sometimes people are afraid to do that and I saw that in my old job allowance where people took on responsibility they weren’t cut out for this very good people but they just weren’t cut out for that responsibility and it wrecked them mentally and physically and emotionally so and I’d be saying if it causes that much damage to you don’t deal with it’s not worth it well life is too short and the quality of life is too short

 

Speaker 1

Just going to say when you were talking about, you know, parents and, you know, in essence that that full life that you’ve described that you had outside of work and the pandemic has has, you know, made our world’s a lot smaller and I think it I think what you’re talking about, there is also that importance to reorient our perspectives and go, what am I doing at the end of work?

 

Speaker 1

Am I shutting my laptop down? Am I going to watch the TV or am I actually moving? Am I still trying to do as best as I can with the things that are available to me? Have you seen much of that as a challenge, maybe in your own experiences or with your own groups, your own network in the sense of parents?

 

Speaker 2

I’m absolutely convinced that the pandemic has done huge damage and psychologically, mentally and emotionally to human beings and I think we won’t be able to measure the damage for quite a number of years.

 

Speaker 2

Not just now. I’d also be saying to people that while technology is brilliant and because I see this stampede for working from home and all this other stuff and I’d be splashing the red lights in, hold on, I’ll steady up now.

 

Speaker 2

It’s not normal to spend 24-7 in a house in a confined area on your own or it’s not normal and while at the moment and part of that can be very effective but I’d be warning against, human beings are social beings.

 

Speaker 2

They do need social contact. They do need to have some direct contact with other human beings for all sorts of reasons. The pandemic has forced us to do things but most things that are done, we’re also very resilient and a lot more resilient than people think and but that doesn’t mean that we’re not being damaged because human beings look at the concentration camps and the way people survived and then you say how could you possibly,

 

Speaker 2

well that’s because of human resilience. It’s the same with the pandemic just because we can survive it and overcome it and be able to. It doesn’t mean that it’s good for us and it’s not good. In my view it is not good for us because of the need for us to have contact with people.

 

Speaker 2

Also psychologically to be going from one place to another place and I know I have taken account of travel and traffic and all that and they have issues and they need to be addressed but at the same time and on the other side of the coin is I don’t believe it’s like prison in a way and the other part of the pandemic is there and people never beginning to realize it.

 

Speaker 2

At the moment here in Ireland we’re getting really impatient about not demanding that the government tell them well when are we going to unlock as if the government knows when we’re going to unlock because they don’t know and that’s what you’re going to prison and being in prison serving an indefinite sentence is like you don’t go and you’re getting out and to cope with that all the time is damaging.

 

Speaker 2

That’s no question in my idea. Of course it’s damaging. It creates stress and anxiety and when you have stress and anxiety in your life you are damaging your physical body and your mental body absolutely so that there’ll be no misunderstanding and lots of people like you know you’re trying to work, you’re doing child care, you’re doing home schooling, you’re doing cleaning, you cannot do all those things.

 

Speaker 2

We expect people to do it. Some people are doing it but I’d say most people that with their honesty to themselves and honest to others they’re under tremendous pressure to try to do all the things and still be confined because we do need space.

 

Speaker 2

We need to get out sometimes. I’m always into parents when I’m giving little parenting talks. The one thing you must do every single day is get out of that house. No matter what happens you must get out of that house and go for a walk and preferably with somebody that you’re friendly with.

 

Speaker 2

You have a nice little chance where it is very positive and where it’s a nice experience. So I’d be saying we need to reflect on the pandemic when it’s over. We have a controller to pick out the bits that were really really good that brought about change because I did forces to make lots of changes which are brilliant.

 

Speaker 2

Also look at the things we are missing and try to cherry pick the things that are also things that are essential for the human beings welfare. I’d be very concerned about children because of the whole breakdown in social contact, physical contact, all that stuff.

 

Speaker 2

I believe all that is huge for children especially playing sport. I mean doing away with sport in my view is crazy for children. I still say it’s crazy. I’d say pandemic or no pandemic. The pandemic is one thing but the life activities of children and the life long damage that can be done to children.

 

Speaker 2

I know from people talking that so too much screens is very hard double message. You talk about the government giving double messages. Parents are giving double messages and we’re telling our children regularly get off that screen.

 

Speaker 2

That screen is bad for you and then all of a sudden it can be on a days or nine hours because only because you’re homeschooling.

 

Speaker 1

Let’s wait.

 

Speaker 2

Please, no one is all over and we’re back to normal. It’s going to be a massive battle to get children back out playing sport again, and a lot of children have lost interest because that’s what happens with children.

 

Speaker 2

They’re not doing it all the time, then they lose interest. And the damage of that, because again, I come back to my absolutely fundamental philosophy for every age group from three or four upwards, I’d say there’s one thing I’d advocate and that is physical activity for everyone.

 

Speaker 2

Physical activity, it doesn’t have to be sport, anything. Walking, running, cycling, swimming, anything. If you’re playing sport, active sport and physical sport, that’s brilliant because you’re doing the two things together.

 

Speaker 2

But I would say the one thing we need to keep promoting in Ireland is more and more and more about physical activity. Come home from work, go for a walk, go for a run, do something, don’t. Sitting down is definitely the worst thing for our health.

 

Speaker 2

We know that now, we need to reduce it as much as, and that’s all linked to wellbeing. And if you’re looking after yourself, you know, physically and mentally, emotionally, when you’re out of work, the reality is that when you’re in work, you’re going to be far more capable, happy or contented, you know, resilient person.

 

Speaker 2

It’s, they all link together.

 

Speaker 1

Oh, they do, they do. And it’s also, you know, what you’re speaking about there is bringing the control back, you know, where do you have control to change things? And exactly like you’re saying, sitting down, it’s a sign and killer, sedentary behavior, we know how detrimental it is to our well-being and the health risks associated with it.

 

Speaker 1

And yeah, physical movement, you know, whatever it is, get out of the house, do what you can. It doesn’t have to be a marathon, start small.

 

Speaker 2

I think that’s from what we’re talking about today, mainly aiming at employers and the workplace. You know, it’s very important that employers see that as part of their responsibility as well. So when a person is working from home all the time, that they’re conscious of that, that it’s not the same as being in the office.

 

Speaker 2

And, you know, you have other people at home, you have children, you have spouses, you have all other different people who have equally vested interests. And for employers to recognize that and to do something about it, like giving a half day off or giving an extra week’s holidays are something just very important to indicate that I, as the employer, am aware of this.

 

Speaker 2

And this is something I’m going to do to try to reduce it or at least to give recognition to it. Because people, human beings like to be thought about, to be recognized. And, you know, and the small things, I always say to people, you know, if you’re, you know, in any sort of medium-sized organizations, I try to get to know the first names of all your employers, try to get to know some little things about them that are like,

 

Speaker 2

you know, if someone is sick of the family, little things that show that you care because that is a great reward. You know, this person isn’t a number, this person isn’t just, that’s why I hate the term and human resource.

 

Speaker 2

I hate that term. I still,

 

Speaker 1

with you on that John, yeah.

 

Speaker 2

You know, human resources, I’m not a human resource of anybody. I’m a human being. I much prefer the old personnel office to enable you or dealing with the personnel. But it’s a thing of a not a resource and a human being.

 

Speaker 2

And I provide a resource for you in certain ways, but I am not your resource. Because I think that’s very important that people feel more important than a job. A job is only one tiny part of who you are.

 

Speaker 2

And there’s a lot of other elements to you and should be. And I wouldn’t apologize for that. And my job is important, but it’s not to be all in all. And there are other parts of me that are equally important.

 

Speaker 1

Yep, exactly. And I think one thing that I’ve seen is, you know, when you start to think of people as just pure resources, it depersonalizes that individual that you’re working with. And it does focus on the transaction and task focused interactions rather than the soft, the conversations that actually mean something and will mean something to that person and to yourself as you get to know them.

 

Speaker 1

And because we are human beings, there are going to be times when we’re all going to go through periods of stress and overwhelm and having that support around you is going to be one of your indicators for, you know, coming out as healthy as you can be.

 

Speaker 1

So I think it’s also recognizing that that relationship goes two ways, you know, like you spoke about earlier, if a manager takes leave from work, the system should operate, you know, without that person there.

 

Speaker 1

So it is it’s more than just, you know, task completion is coming back to who are we as human beings? How do we look after as each other as human beings? How do we feed into that society? But whether it’s the workplace, the wider society, the community, it’s really thinking about how all those systems move and work together and feed off each other.

 

Speaker 1

Definitely. So John, it’s been absolutely amazing having you here today. I could spend all day talking to you, to be honest. I think we’ve only just started to skim the surface of all the different areas of philosophy and well-being and, you know, community that we could cover.

 

Speaker 1

But it’s been it’s been great having you here and I hope our listeners will be able to take some of them. I’m sure they will. Are there any final words that you want?

 

Speaker 2

I guess the only thing we didn’t really talk about and just to mention it because it’s important, I would be saying you know very strongly to people there was a responsibility and in the authority in organizations to develop the skill of listening and hearing.

 

Speaker 2

From the door person to the cleaner to the you know the team maker to the chief, it doesn’t matter what they are, they’re human beings, the van driver, it doesn’t matter who they are, develop the skill of recognizing people.

 

Speaker 2

So always recognize the person, if you have their first name it’s brilliant and always be appreciative, always appreciate. So thank you, it’s powerful and then listening, listening to people and hearing what they’re saying.

 

Speaker 2

It doesn’t mean that you know your democratization that the organization that the majority rules, it’s not what you will be enriched if you listen and hear people because some people maybe way down the scale of job status could have amazing information and major observations to give you and if you were that person who I’m always reminded of Terry Wogan, one of our most famous ever broadcasters then in the documentary in England,

 

Speaker 2

the BBC did on his life which was a tribute in itself, he was Irishman from Limerick but he was recognized as a world cast broadcaster, but I remember one woman talking about him you know about him in the studio and how humble he was and she said one of the things about Terry Wogan is he knew every single person from the door in by first name and he made a point every single day of talking to them about their lives and sitting down with them and racking and chatting with them and having fun with them.

 

Speaker 2

He treated it from the door man in and that’s an indication of class, not status, just class.

 

Speaker 1

great final words. Thank you, John. That’s been, as I said, it’s been absolutely amazing having you here with us today. Thank you so much. And thank you for everyone for listening today. And we look forward to hopefully catching up with you again on another occasion.