Sure I‘m Grand: Exploring Men‘s Mental Health

Speaker 1

Hello and welcome to our ZevoTalk session on Men’s Mental Health or International Men’s Day, which is on Sunday 19th of November.

Speaker 2

I’m delighted to have with us today

Speaker 1

Jamie O’Crowley, Psychotherapist and Wellness Speaker. Welcome, Jamie. Hi, thanks for having me. Welcome to our Zevo Talk session on men’s mental health for International Men’s Day, which is on Sunday, 19th of November.

Speaker 1

I’m delighted to have with us today, Jamie O’Crowley, Psychotherapist and Wellness Speaker. Welcome, Jamie. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for joining the discussion today. So first of all, why are we here talking about, you know, men’s mental health?

Speaker 1

Why is it an important issue for this podcast, do you think? Well, you know, it’s coming at International Men’s Day. So this is celebrated on November 19th. And I suppose it’s a chance to recognise and honour men’s contributions to society.

Speaker 1

But more importantly, I think, raise awareness about their well-being. And it’s always a good opportunity to put a strong focus on men’s mental health as well, you know, because despite the fact there’s lots more talk and chatter around men’s health, there still is a lot to be explored and a lot to be ingratiated and integrated into society as a whole.

Speaker 1

I feel some kind of cool and strong there. But that’s good. Yeah, yeah. No, I think it’s an area that’s in developmental stages and is progressing and is a hot topic at the moment as well about, you know, how men’s mental health may differ or how they process emotions differ or does not differ from women as well.

Speaker 1

And there’s been a lot of, I suppose, support there for women’s health. And women may be a bit more proactive about seeking help, a bit more open about mental health concerns they might have. Whereas, you know, there might be a couple of, I suppose, barriers or there’s kind of a gender difference there, really, isn’t there?

Speaker 1

Sure. I mean, I think that, you know, it’s it’s hard sometimes discussions like this are a little bit difficult because we are drawing a line between men and women, as it were, traditionally. So, right.

Speaker 1

So I kind of just wanted to mention that at the start, because it’s it’s important to know that there is delicate plan to walk on anyway. And so it’s important to kind of keep it looking. You know, I can speak a lot to to men’s health because that’s how I identify I feel that way.

Speaker 1

So I can bring in a lot of my own experience and also experience I suppose within different groups and people that I work with who happen to be men as well. You know, and I feel that might add a bit more and I suppose of a richness and a depth to to sometimes a bit sterile.

Speaker 1

This can be sometimes a sterile topic. You know, if we get bogged down in figures and stats like I am prone to do anyway. So I was trying to get by more and so. But I mean, but there is something that I suppose is the most important thing for me anyway, to mention at the start.

Speaker 1

And I kind of want this to be the ghost that harbors over the next of the wire that we talk, which is that this these figures are probably accurate. And I’m going to say that again. They are accurate because I look them up.

Speaker 1

They’re accurate until May 2023. And we’re going to talk about suicide rates for a moment. And now still and the male suicide rate is 14.2 for every 100000 and female suicide rate is five point two for every 100000.

Speaker 1

All right. So I’m acutely aware that three times the rate. Yes, exactly. And and you know, it’s one of the highest rates of male suicide in Europe as well. You know, so I’m acutely aware that not all mental and emotional difficulties result in suicide, but it feels like an important fact, I think, to set the tone because we’re dealing with real outcomes here and we’re dealing with real people as well.

Speaker 1

And it’s it’s important to look at the consequences of and of mental illness, I would say, or when mental health isn’t looked after. So, you know, it’s kind of heavy hitting at the start. But I kind of wanted to remain with us as we talk, too, because it isn’t it’s such an important point to keep reminding ourselves of, you know, that people are suffering and people are are leaving as a result of that suffering.

Speaker 1

And people aren’t seeking that help. Or maybe that support system isn’t there as well, which we will discuss. And it can be I think it’s roughly about 10 percent are languishing and another 20 percent are in poor mental health as well.

Speaker 1

So just a considerable section there that’s in need of support and people do move between sections and into improved mental health as well, which is positive to see that something can be done as well.

Speaker 1

So maybe since we’re talking about, you know, Irish figures in the Irish context, do you think for me personally, from being from the countryside, having, you know, three younger brothers and seeing the impact, particularly back in the 80s, 90s, of how difficult they could have been for men to.

Speaker 1

be open up, open up about challenges they may have or seeking help, particularly around teenage years. I know some of my classmates who unfortunately died by suicide as well, that was a very hard environment, particularly in the rural area, particularly with that Irish cultural influence as well.

Speaker 1

Where do you think that might stem from that, you know, that, you know, I suppose culture around, you know, drinking, pop culture back in the day as well. And I mean, this is certainly going on hundreds of years in Ireland, where men must be strong and resilient and buckle up and, you know, this resilience through hardship, but yet no room for vulnerability for asking for help even.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I think it’s really, it’s a really good thing that you brought in the Irish context there, because it has such value in discussing something like this, because, you know, if keeping it just to, yeah, as you point out that Irish context, there is a traditional Irish culture and societal norms that can impact men’s health.

Speaker 1

What you’ve seen growing up and certainly what I’ve seen growing up too. And historically, many Irish men, actually many men in general, I would say, you know, across multiple cultures have been raised in an environment that emphasizes strength and resilience and self-reliance.

Speaker 1

And all of these things can potentially discourage them from expressing vulnerability, as you say, or seeking help for mental health issues. And even just kind of honing in just on the Irish for a moment, you know, in terms of our history, things such as, you know, economic struggles, immigration, or, you know, the legacy of the stuff.

Speaker 1

There’s a very strong argument to be made that the legacy of that has impacted mental, the mental and emotional health of men and women in this country. And I know we’re focusing on men today, but the more we learn about this, the more we’re open to it, we’re going to start to invite different aspects of this into the conversation, such as epigenetics and intergenerational trauma as well, which I really feel has a place at the table here.

Speaker 1

And, you know, I can even fumbled over a second time saying it. So there is reason I’m fumbling because it’s still a relatively new area of understanding within the field of mental health. But to put it down into simple terms, you know, genetics is that kind of study of heredity, right?

Speaker 1

Where epigenetics is looking at how environmental influences can cause certain genes to be silenced or expressed, you know, so we can look at that as something as simple as the stress response. OK, so yes, you have like a legacy of something, you know, say like your grandparents went through something where your parents, grandparents, their grandparents, you know, depending on the environment that they grew up with him with high stress,

Speaker 1

you know, going through some of the troubles in Ireland that we were discussing so far, you know, there’s an argument to be made that that same activation of the stress response can exist three or four generations down because we’re hardwired to feel it more, you know, now, as I said, it’s kind of like an evolutionary adapt adaptation process, really, it kind of makes sense from that perspective.

Speaker 1

But it’s so interesting that something that can happen generation previously, or may have occurred with your grandparents that your nervous system, your own nervous system is built to react in that fight or flight, or maybe that kind of shut down mode as well, that’s kind of before we’re born, you know, that that stage is set, which is really interesting.

Speaker 1

So in the Irish context, you’re thinking of, as you said, the troubles and even far back to, you know, the famine may have had an impact as well. And absolutely, you know, feeding the country or staying here in difficult conditions.

Speaker 1

I think it’s absolutely right, you know, and then, you know, it’s so easy to kind of turn your nose over this type of stuff, but you feel it does exist on the on the island of Ireland still, because, you know, we’re talking about that, that intergenerational piece here, that trauma that exists.

Speaker 1

And so in other words, you know, in case anybody is aware of what that is, it’s how traumatic experiences can affect children and grandchildren of those who initially suffered that experience or that trauma through, you know, psychological or social and maybe even biological ways, which is where the epigenetics kind of fits into that a little bit, you know, so this can include a wide variety of experiences anyway,

Speaker 1

from things like war, things like poverty to, as you said, the great famine, to abuse, you know, events, events that are that are deeply, deeply woven into Ireland’s history. And it’s like, and it’s not just a male thing, or a female thing, it’s a person thing, which but it does have implications.

Speaker 1

So without, you know, oversimplifying history, I mean, we were talking about those those widespread traumatic things, again, the famine conflicts, institutional abuses as well. and how these collective traumas can have lasting effects across generations.

Speaker 1

And these these events have, sorry, I’m getting kind of riled up about it, right, but these events can be it can be argued that they in essence shape the Irish identity, right, communal relationships and most importantly, individual mental health.

Speaker 1

And we see this through our own internal reactions to anxiety. But we also see it across the board through how we vote in our politics, what art is like in this country and all of this stuff that is that is so tapped into these experiences that we had.

Speaker 1

And there is an idea, I suppose, that as we as we’re talking about now, that this stress and this trauma that has been endured by the previous generations during these historical events may not just pass down psychologically, but could also again potentially affect the genetic expression of future generations as well.

Speaker 1

So, you know, you mentioned that the stress response, I think, is probably the most important thing to mention here, because, you know, the high stress environments can trigger those changes of the expression related to the stress response, potentially leading to mental health issues in descendants.

Speaker 1

You know, so and addiction as well. Addiction, I think the propensity towards it. 100 percent, you know, absolutely. I think as well, when I started looking at this stuff, right, immediately I started getting a bit freaked out because I was thinking, OK, what does this mean?

Speaker 1

So yeah, I think I think there’s a there’s a there’s a healing in moving and there’s a healing and understanding and an empowerment and understanding that this could be an aspect of it, right. So it’s like that.

Speaker 1

There’s a lot of factors outside your own mind when you’re taking a stigma about your own mental health impacts that it’s even greater than than you as an individual. And, you know, you’ve hit the nail in the head.

Speaker 1

That’s such a really important point that you made there, because that, you know, and especially in terms of empowerment, understanding the potential impacts of things like epigenetics or things like intergenerational trauma is it isn’t meant to make individuals feel like they’re trapped by the past or burdened by the past or that there’s no escape from that eventuality.

Speaker 1

Well, my granddad suffered. Therefore, I’m going to suffer. Like we can park that for a moment. It’s understanding that, as you pointed out, there’s a deeper understanding that there are forces that may shape our mental health that go outside the realm of our responsibility.

Speaker 1

And this is especially important for men to hear as well, I feel, because, you know, as you mentioned very rightly at the beginning of this of this conversation, perhaps women find it easier to speak and seek help.

Speaker 1

Perhaps there isn’t that same stigma that may exist for men to do that. And as a result, by reaching out and by voicing what’s going on for you, you’re inviting in a different perspective. You’re getting outside the echo chambers of your own mind and suddenly you have an array of light that comes in through the clouds.

Speaker 1

The reverse, when you’re not talking, is is equally as powerful, but it might not lead to a nicer outcome, which is I’m stuck in this position now. I must have got myself here. I’m not talking about it.

Speaker 1

And that cycle goes. So even just by letting if you can’t talk to anybody yet, even just letting in the knowledge that OK, hang on a second, generationally, I’ve been on this island for a while, what has happened here before that may be lingering?

Speaker 1

You know, and even if you’re not, you’re Irish, but you’re not generationally from this island, chances are from wherever generationally you are from, you are bringing some stuff over as well. So it still applies.

Speaker 1

We just happen to be talking about the Irish context a little bit. You know, so there’s there going to be an impairment there, I feel, you know, for other cultures, there can be expectations in the family, roles of the male in the family, religious expectations as well, it’s just an interesting thing.

Speaker 1

But also, I suppose there’s a point that there’s individual agency, there’s individual differences as well, not that it’s all external or cultural. But I think maybe stigma in itself plays a part because with men and women, there can be a sense of, you know, shame about, you know, suffering with anxiety and having symptoms, feeling nervous at work because you’re, you know, a built up anxiety and you’re trying to perform or been asked to do tasks or not being able to get out of bed in the morning because of depression.

Speaker 1

And this could have occurred from, you know, a significant life event or something may be going on on an unconscious level that you’re not satisfied with and you need to recede from life. So there’s a lot of, you know, I suppose.

Speaker 1

people should be a bit more, again, this is kind of externalizing as well to the whole mental health of a human mind as well that, but there’s a fear that, you know, I suppose people would be judged by society at work.

Speaker 1

It’s very difficult to open up as well. Sure. There’s shifts there at the moment, but, um, I think stigma may be a barrier for men as well, you know, going to see CalP or, uh, I’ve been listening to some podcast where they say like, I’ve saw help, but my friends aren’t, and I can’t really open up about no one’s really doing it or at least talking about it.

Speaker 1

So I think there’s room there for, for kind of culture shift. I think so. I think you’re like, again, it’s such an important thing to, to raise. And, and there was something that you said just a few moments ago that didn’t want to let just kind of sail by, cause I think it really resonated with me when we were speaking about intergenerational trauma and you spoke about is not just being cultural,

Speaker 1

a cultural issue of course, individual people are at the heart of all this. So the individual not getting lost in the group. It’s, it’s important to retain your individuality, um, but also letting in what possible driving forces there are.

Speaker 1

And I think when you said that, I was like, yes, that’s, that’s exactly, that’s exactly exactly it. Cause it can be a little bit of, um, of an abstaining of, um, responsibility. I think when we start to only listen to the driving forces, right?

Speaker 1

It’s like, it’s like, well, it must have been there for fault. Therefore I don’t have to do the work now to make myself feel better. You know, it’s like, you still have to show up for yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 1

I’ve taken in the context, you know, even as being male as well and thinking, uh, women or certain other groups might need more support than I do. Therefore I don’t need to, I shouldn’t be seeking support, which is the other flip side impact, a negative impact of looking at everything from a socio-cultural perspective and not on the individual as well.

Speaker 2

Here at Zevo Health, we have designed a training to shine a light on various important aspects of the male experience, particularly from the point of view of mental health and emotional wellbeing. This session explores the untouchables, the emotions that often carry very negative connotations for men, those that may consciously or unconsciously steer away from for fear of being lost.

Speaker 2

Your employees will also come away with a deeper understanding of positive skills and qualities men can develop to foster authentic relationships. Contact us today to inquire about the men’s mental health training for your organization.

Speaker 1

And just in terms of stigmas, you said that you’re sure that it exists within men as well, and like, you know, like an attestive, it absolutely does. You know, and it’s whatever that, I mean, we all have kind of a loose idea of what stigma is, so it might be worthwhile just kind of breaking it down a small bit, you know.

Speaker 1

So again, I’m just going with it. There’s a psychotherapeutic lens through which I’m looking through all this. So there is other lenses out there, but for today I’m presenting it as that strong feeling of disapproval that most people in a society have for something, especially when we view it as being unfair.

Speaker 1

And in the context of mental health, stigma is often going to involve prejudice. It’s often going to involve misconceptions about mental illness, which inevitably will lead to discrimination and or exclusion, right?

Speaker 1

So within this, then we can kind of break it down further because we’re looking at the individual and we’re looking at the group at the same time and having a foot in both camps. So then we go, right, if my feet are in both camps, then I have to recognize that there’s a public stigma and there’s also a self stigma that I’m engaging with.

Speaker 1

So public stigma is that reaction of the population towards people with mental health issues. And then I have that a little bit more insidious internalized stigma, which is the prejudice, people with mental health issues, you know, the prejudice about turning against yourself for having them.

Speaker 1

Am I exhibiting a certain amount of symbols? Does this mean I have anxiety? Does this mean I’m there for a week? And then we kind of go into, you know, we don’t want to spend too long to leave and start history, but it’s just this cycle context.

Speaker 1

It’s kind of important to kind of bring back in as well, because you’d mentioned before about traditional religious beliefs, too, and all of that can help, can contribute to stigma, too. And historically speaking, mental illness in many societies, you know, was often misunderstood and associated, as you pointed out, with negative connotations.

Speaker 1

So think about all the, think about the Irish culture when, you know, back even from the 80s and 90s, even too far away from now, mental health issues are often kept within the family, as it were, you know, it’s a look after, you know, whatever will keep it quiet or keep it in the community or institutional care.

Speaker 1

And when you had to use things like institutional care, that was stigmatizing in and of itself. There was no, and that still does exist now. It’s still there now. I’m not going, I’m going to spend some time here to get the help I need.

Speaker 1

It’s more, what are you doing there? There’s something wrong with you. You know, and that, that unfortunately still comes true. And there is this cultural expectation of, in men, and I’d say in all society, not just in Irish society, to be, again, that kind of strong, stoic, self-reliant kind of person, right?

Speaker 1

This kind of machismo that is given and that we absorb or, or any other term that denotes the pressure on men to be tough and how it discourages men from admitting vulnerabilities for fear of appearing weak.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And so this is where self-stigmatisation really rears its head and we start, you know, how are these internalised stereotypes, where are these internalised stereotypes leading me? Well, they’re leading me to feel ashamed and terrible about myself and because I’m a human that is vulnerable, I’m a human that is, at times, going to need help and need to get some support.

Speaker 1

But I can’t reach out there because it completely conflicts with this idea of my chismo or my say that word, right? Yeah. But macho, right? Being a macho man.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And look, the reason why I suppose we’re talking about stigma anyway is because the consequences of stigma are very evident too, you know, and you know. Amazing till it’s too late really, till you’re in crisis.

Speaker 1

A hundred percent, you know, and that’s, you know, it’s a really good point. And you had mentioned even a few months ago about that reluctance to seek help, and that’s really, really, really important because when we’re reluctant to seek help, we’re in effect putting ourselves into a mode of isolation, social isolation, removing ourselves from the group, and potentially worsening any mental health conditions that we may have.

Speaker 1

And this is not just limited to our working life. This is something that transcends all of that. It’s relationships, it’s work life, it’s physical health, it’s anything that you feel connected to. That’s what gets affected when your mental health is challenged.

Speaker 1

And look, we’re going back to that statistic, and perhaps we’ve explored the very start, which is suicide rates. And you know, it isn’t, you know, it isn’t worth playing around with this type of stuff in a way, you know, there are very real consequences.

Speaker 1

And you know, I suppose the obvious question is, how do we come out of this then? How do we break that stigma? And can we acknowledge that the progress has been made? I mean, in your experience, and in my experience, can we acknowledge that in the last decades that that progress has been made?

Speaker 1

I mean, I would say yeah, but I would definitely have seen a shift in the last 10 years in Irish culture amongst my male friends and how they socialize now and getting into juditsu and, you know, sport or music and changing, I suppose that setting where they do socialize a bit and shaking it up.

Speaker 1

But that can be an age thing as well, a maturing kind of coincidence. I suppose that’s what we could talk about as well is, okay, there’s people are told go to their GP, go seek therapy. Therapy is there’s so many different branches, there’s psychotherapy, there’s counseling, there’s psychoanalysis, it’s endless.

Speaker 1

It can be daunting, I think, for anyone really, you know, going to seek professional help. And there’s always this apprehension and fear of, you know, revisiting hearts that might be quite buried there as well.

Speaker 1

You know, you kind of think you’ll see a therapist and they’ll be all ripped open and exposed, and it’s bringing yourself into that vulnerable space. But I think it’s important to note that support in your mental health can come from the physical health side, from many other different techniques, I’m trying to think hiking or, you know, I suppose everyone has things that kind of get them out of themselves,

Speaker 1

or adults that are in, of course, if we were talking about severe depression or severe anxiety can be very difficult to kind of build up into these kind of activities again. But I think for men, maybe I don’t know, what do you think that their strategies may in general be slightly different to what, you know, women might feel supportive, like, you know, sure, taking help with, with groups, or what would you think in terms of solutions to support mental health?

Speaker 1

I feel that like, I mean, psychotherapy, again, I’m biased, I always find that it’s, it’s very, very useful to have that space that’s your own to explore yourself in a way that that’s, that you feel is needed.

Speaker 1

And well, let’s call a space a space, it’s expensive as well, you know, a lot of people can’t, can’t put themselves in that position. I don’t understand that. So then we go, right, if I can’t, I don’t have the money, or I don’t, I’m not willing to do it yet, or I’m not ready for whatever reason is there, how can I do something that’s a bit more practiceable right now?

Speaker 1

And or is there a solution that kind of gets gets the ball rolling a little bit, right? So the first thing that I would feel is really valuable is again, this is kind of piggybacking or jumping off what we’re talking about in terms of stigma, is tapping into whatever, you know, you’d use the phrase earlier on that I’m going to rob on you now, it’s that that call call to action, right?

Speaker 1

So stepping into yourself a little bit. So encouraging yourself as a man, without any judgment attached to it, encouraging yourself to challenge the stigmatizing attitudes in your own life as it is now.

Speaker 1

So, you know, you know, if you’re feeling that you’re, you’re, you’re weak, or you have this drive within you that is resisting something, or you feel like you’re small, or you feel like, you know, I should be more, all this kind of stuff, right?

Speaker 1

You get you catch yourself saying I should be doing this, or I shouldn’t do that, or you stop yourself from crying or whatever it is, right? Do you don’t have to change anything right now, just notice it, what’s going on and be curious about that, that drive, you know, so It’s being mindful of the language you used to describe yourself.

Speaker 1

It’s exercising a bit of empathy towards yourself because as we’ve explored today, it’s not just about you. There’s lots of stuff that came before as well. So therefore it’s not all in your shoulders.

Speaker 1

So let’s relax a little bit. All right. And then, you know, and offering support to the men in your life. And look, you can, as a man, hopefully leverage, um, you know, your, your spheres of influence to kind of follow suit, you know, whether it’s that that’s at home or it’s on social media, um, or whatever it is, it’s advocating if you can for more open, honest, and supportive dialogue around men’s health and not to feel othered by virtue of going through a bad patch.

Speaker 1

Every single person does a select few are able to admit it to themselves. That’s the difference. You’re still, you’re still a human, but, and you’re still experiencing something. Um, and then look, you know, that that’s kind of main, that’s kind of the more unconscious behavioral stuff really, and, and, and gearing yourself up.

Speaker 1

But, but from like to general, like general tips or tricks is, you know, bringing them in, like in encouraging yourself to, to, to step into something a bit more vulnerable, encouraging a bit of open communication.

Speaker 1

Now there’s a misconception, especially with men, right? And there’s a few that I’ve worked with before, where, where there’s a talking about being vulnerable and then immediately seeing the shoulders going down, you know, or, or, or they’re talking openly.

Speaker 1

It’s like, you know what? No, I’m not doing that. And because there’s an assumption that if you’re quite a guarded person or you want to, um, you, you’re kind of, uh, leaning into that stereotype of being the strong silent macho guy by virtue of being vulnerable.

Speaker 1

It doesn’t mean that you have to show all of your cards all at once. Um, that would actually be a silly approach as far as I’m concerned, right? It’s like, if you want to practice a bit of vulnerability and practice the idea of, um, communicating what your needs are or reaching out to your partner or friends, then you start showing them one card.

Speaker 1

And if that feels good, if it’s well received, you know, if you realize it isn’t the scariest thing in the world, maybe here’s another card and here’s another card. It’s that gentle, gradual approach towards communicating, you know, it can be such a powerful thing.

Speaker 1

And there, and further to that, I mean, you’d mentioned your friends doing jujitsu. Was that, I hear you’re right. They’re doing mixed martial arts and all that, getting rid of any, to get rid of aggression.

Speaker 1

And, and, and it’s quite psychological or cognitive as well to kind of, and it’s that mind body connection without say an alternative to yoga or, you know, mindfulness, maybe, you know? Yeah, but it’s, it’s hugely important.

Speaker 1

Like any sort of physical activities is, you know, massive. I mean, that mind body connection is really important to look at too. And for men, you know, I don’t know if there’s going to be any use, but it’s certainly something that served me in the past.

Speaker 1

Um, you know, we’re so, we’re so comfortable as a culture now to talk about when you break your leg, you need to take some rest or you break your arm. Anything physically, anything physical that happens to you, it’s, ah, that’s, that’s rubbish.

Speaker 1

That’s when he said different word there, actually. Ah, that’s terrible that that happened to you, you know, um, you know, make sure you rest up, but we don’t have the same approach to any sort of mental difficulty too.

Speaker 1

So sometimes even acknowledging that you’re feeling anxious, try and pretend as if it’s a broken leg, you know, give yourself this, give yourself the same care and support and rest that that, um, temporarily broken part of you needs to recuperate, right?

Speaker 1

And this can be done through, um, respecting yourself as you pointed out, but you don’t true physical activity generally anyway, and be more tuned in to, uh, you know, expressing emotions to the body and especially within or through the body.

Speaker 1

And especially within this time that we’re living in now where most of us are working on a hybrid model, most of us are, are separated from other people. Um, more often than we would have been before.

Speaker 1

Like you and I are, you and I are speaking right now. I’m, I’m effectively only seeing you from the shoulders up. You’re only seeing me from the shoulders up, right? And so that’s a very cognitive space to be working from, you know, and we can spend all our time in there.

Speaker 1

It’s a total lack of connection as well. Absolutely. Like we’re sitting here right now, but I know on some level that I’m just speaking to my laptop in a room here. There’s no one else here. You’re not even here.

Speaker 1

You’re not here. I’m, you know, where you are, I’m not there. So that can kind of get under our skin a little bit so it can put, bring us into our heads. And when we’re in our heads, that’s of course fertile ground for creating worlds.

Speaker 1

That’s where anxiety can rear. It’s, you know, it’s all that, yeah, you know, that as that energy goes up, we’re, we’re, we’re creating space for. From the shoulders up, I think as well hunched over the desk.

Speaker 1

And I think there’s just so much more of a demand beyond ergonomics, but for like shaking off to really like engage in the nervous system, like to become more animal again, instead of this head on a screen.

Speaker 1

It’s just, uh, to be more embodied, I think is, you know, important practice. That’s the word. That’s the word he said, the embodiment, you know, that’s, that’s exactly the word that was with me, you know, as you were speaking too, it’s that, how do I re-embody myself?

Speaker 1

Reconnect with, um, you know, you know, reconnect with something and you know, this may be very overly simplistic, but I find this has worked for me as well. It’s when you’re choosing something, it doesn’t mean you have to suddenly run a marathon or do the Tour de France, you know, you don’t have to do any of that.

Speaker 1

It’s anything from walking, running, cycling, even just stretching your desk, whatever it is, to re-embody yourself. Not only is it linked to stress reduction and mood improvements, you know, but you’re feeling as a whole more connected to yourself.

Speaker 1

You’re quite literally some body. And sometimes bringing yourself back or even getting out a lunch, particularly being around nature or around animals. It’s that reconnection again and it switches from this work mind of tasks to more present moment awareness, which has been shown to be so good for your mental and physical health or help kind of change the mental landscape as well.

Speaker 1

So it needn’t always be like weekly intensive psychotherapy sessions, although that would be quite helpful, particularly with more serious mental health concerns. But there’s always these little things you can do in the day to help and to prioritize yourself, I think as well, you know, to ask for that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and that’s the, you know, there’s a few different things you can do to keep it easier for yourself. You know, if you’re wanting, if you’re wanting to, similar to speaking to people or being more vulnerable, it’s one card at a time.

Speaker 1

Say you haven’t been doing anything at your desk and you’ve thought of getting into your body. I actually suppose that’s something that just came to me now. You know, there could be a part of everyone, you know, we’re talking about reconnecting with the body.

Speaker 1

There are people out there that have issues with self-image, a body image anyway, and they don’t want to actually get into their body. So what I would suggest there is when we’re talking about that mind-body connection, it’s important, but go within your tolerance.

Speaker 1

You know, if you’re resisting something, if you’re acutely resisting something, it’s so important to register that too, because perhaps it’s safer for you not to go there right now, and therefore you give that the respect it deserves too.

Speaker 1

But generally speaking, if you’re thinking, you know, I used to do a bit of walking or running, or I used to do whatever, and I just haven’t for a while, because Netflix is deadly. Well, then you go, right, so how do I, you know, tune back into myself in an easy way?

Speaker 1

Well, you do something that will keep you coming back for more. You don’t have to start being Usain Bolt, as I said, or anything like that. It’s like, why can I give myself the opportunity just to stretch my shoulders or my arms above my head every hour?

Speaker 1

It’s so simple, but it can, it just makes you feel better as well, I know. Absolutely. I’ve been doing a lot of nervous system shaking, qigong, that kind of, there are things people can look up, but just, it’s a body up, bottom up kind of technique.

Speaker 1

So you’re working on the body to change the mind. And I think, you know, using your nervous system to kind of address what’s going on, and using it as a tool to kind of, you know, change that landscape, you know, might be worth someone looking into as well.

Speaker 1

I think it’s so cool. Yeah, Yeah, no, I’ve never never practiced or heard of it before. That’s, that’s sounds amazing. Yeah, somatic experience, and it’s about that embodiment part. And if you have some hesitations or unconscious barriers to embodiment, just something going on there, and you need to be or try to be curious about it as well.

Speaker 1

So it’s a good way of getting in to what’s going on unconsciously as well. But that might be another topic for another podcast. Jamie, thank you so much for that. We really covered some really interesting points made about stigma, about judgment, about cultural and historical trauma and impacts, um, a bit of individual agency and really trying to understand or start to empathize with, you know, the difficulties that men may be experiencing dealing with this on their own without any professional support,

Speaker 1

or maybe the ability to open up. And, and I suppose as we said there, there’s no one fixed approach. And maybe this is the time for a further exploration of what does work for men anyway, and maybe to have more research, you know, of men and groups and interviews to explore what works for them, you know, if it is different, you know, any last thoughts?

Speaker 1

Sorry there, Jamie. No, no, no, I was just listening to you there. I was just saying, no, thank you very much for having me. I think there’s, there’s something, you know, I agree with everything that you, that you’ve said there, really, you know, and there is a huge strength in vulnerability.

Speaker 1

There is an importance of changing the narrative around. men’s mental health. I know it’s starting, but it’s important, as you said, to keep listening, to keep tuning in to find what works for you. And look, no matter how you feel about International Men’s Day, right, personally, it just serves a purpose in highlighting these crucial issues and fostering a society where men’s emotional and mental health is prioritised,

Speaker 1

understood and most importantly, supported. So not too shabby a day. Yeah. And I like the part that you said, strength with vulnerability. I think, you know, the term masculinity has taken a bit of a lot of criticism and it needs to be explored about what that truly is for what is this good, strong male identity, you know, without this kind of toxic elements that may have been attached as a label and where does that come from as well.

Speaker 1

So I think it might be a time to look back on of change for men’s mental health, hopefully, you know, especially in. Absolutely. All right. Thanks so much again for that interesting conversation and thank you all for joining us today.