The impact of workplace wellbeing with IBEC

Unknown speaker

Welcome back to Zevotalks, a podcast where we talk to thought leaders, risk takers and great people making change. I’m your host, Aisling, and in today’s episode, we are once again diving into the world of wellness to see how Ireland has made this a necessary factor in the modern workforce.

Unknown speaker

I am delighted to be joined by two of Ibex’s very best, Sophie Moran and Cara McGahn. Sophie has been instrumental in taking wellbeing to the forefront of Irish businesses and making it a priority. Cara is the head of social policy, focusing particularly in the area of diversity, inclusion and mental health.

Unknown speaker

She has made huge headway in making inclusion and acceptance a priority in the Irish workforce. Thank you very much for joining us today. Firstly, let’s talk about what has made wellbeing a priority in your own life and then going on to introduce it as part of your career.

Unknown speaker

I suppose for me, the whole area of mental health was always of particular interest. I trained as a psychotherapist and so it would always have been something that I felt was really important in terms of that whole wellbeing experience.

Unknown speaker

Sometimes we’ve narrowed our focus on physical health without accepting that in the same way that we have physical health that can be good or bad on a given day or month or year, we equally have mental health that can be good or bad on a day, month or year and that if we embrace that kind of holistic approach to wellbeing, we’re giving ourselves the best chance to fulfil our potential and really bring our whole selves to work,

Unknown speaker

to life outside of work and so on. I suppose for me wellbeing is important for a couple of reasons. On the personal side of things like for many years I would have been a dancer and a gymnast so you know looking after my nutrition and being physically active is something that has always been important and played a role in my life and then on the other hand similarly to Cara mental health would be an area of interest and I suppose it’s something that has touched my life you know through family members,

Unknown speaker

friends of friends, suicide is something that I would be familiar with and I suppose reducing stigma around mental health and just promoting an acceptance that as you mentioned Cara it’s something that affects everyone and something that can go up and down from day to day and it’s something that’s important to me in terms of my career the the well-being piece is something that evolved from work I was doing in the area of promoting nutrition and physical activity.

Unknown speaker

I was doing some work with Food Drink Ireland in the area of promoting nutrition and physical activity and I suppose we started to then look at wellbeing from a more holistic point of view and thinking of ways that we could promote this kind of positive acceptance and embracing wellbeing in businesses.

Unknown speaker

Is it something then that you actively looked for to go into a career to do something around wellness and wellbeing and corporate wellness I guess? Was it something that you said, okay this is, I want to be involved with corporate wellness, I want to push it?

Unknown speaker

For me, no actually, it sort of evolved. So the role that I work in in IBEC, the whole area of diversity and inclusion when we first started it was very much a focus on things like gender balance, things like cultural diversity and so on.

Unknown speaker

And about seven, maybe eight years ago, a shift happened and people started to actually talk a little bit more about mental health, wellbeing, wellness and the connection I suppose between how your mental health is doing and how that can impact you in every aspect of your life including the workplace.

Unknown speaker

A lot of work with Sea Change, the National Stigma Reduction Partnership was very much the starter for that conversation and for enabling I think employers to have conversations about it not being okay, or rather it being okay to not be okay and that we needed to reduce this whole idea that mental health happened to other people, it was about them as opposed to it happens to one in four of us.

Unknown speaker

So it’s us, it’s people in the same room. So the role I guess evolved and we were getting queries from employers who were concerned that if they had a member of staff who was in mental distress and how could they support them but equally a fear that anything they would do would add to the difficulty the person was already having and so they were they were looking for support and looking for a way of navigating through that in an area that a lot of people hadn’t really dealt with before it you know we’re in a fortunate place now where people talk about mental health a lot more than they used to and we’ve hopefully addressed stigma in a way that we maybe hadn’t in the past to the same level we still work to do but we’ve come a long way and I think demystifying some of the areas around mental health and the fears that people had were I suppose coming from our employer as a demand that we were we were facing so it was really fortunate because it also married with a real interest for me certainly and and so therefore it evolved as part of a role that I was already in so I guess stumbled into it somewhat in that sense yeah.

Unknown speaker

And you mentioned that it it kind of has always been a part of your life and wellness and more so the nutrition and physical aspect is it something then that you actively wanted a career in or again kind of stumbled upon it?

Unknown speaker

I’d say definitely stumbled upon it. I think the whole area of corporate wellness and well-being has really evolved rapidly in the past like five five to ten years so it’s not an area that I would really have been aware of when I was thinking about you know future career prospects.

Unknown speaker

I actually trained in drama so again very much about you know looking after yourself and being at peak performance so it definitely marries with the personal interest but it was just a natural evolution of the work that I was then doing in helping to promote nutrition and physical activity but no I think it’s it’s an emerging area still so there’s lots of interesting roles that are coming out now as well and we’re seeing in a lot of the companies that we’re working with on the Keep Wellmark roles with well-being in the title and I think it’s it’s great to see businesses putting well-being at the forefront and really investing in it and giving the required resources to I suppose to properly tackle well-being in the workplace.

Unknown speaker

Yeah it’s really great to see because you can certainly see that people are realising the value of it and the impact that it can have on how we work and the culture of our workplace and I suppose the freedom that people have to bring their whole selves to work.

Unknown speaker

which, if we’re not doing that, actually causes problems for the individual and the employer. So it’s great to see that we’re coming to that and that there’s been such a groundswell, as Sophie says, of interest in this area and growth in this area.

Unknown speaker

It’s like the leaving search, revision books, less stress, more success. Yeah, totally. Cara, could you tell me a bit more about what social policy is? Sure. I suppose it’s a really interesting area, but it’s a very broad area.

Unknown speaker

So it can range, if I even think about it at the moment, kind of some of the key areas we’re working on, it can range from everything to do with social welfare reform, childcare, diversity and inclusion obviously ranging from disability and getting people with disabilities into the workplace and retaining people with disabilities in the workplace all the way through to gender pay gap reporting, gender balance and so on so it’s it’s kind of I suppose touching on all of the social aspects that impact and life in general but also the workplace and so it can be quite a broad church but a really interesting one as well.

Unknown speaker

Excellent and Sophie in your opinion how do you think companies can effectively change and improve their employees well-being? I suppose one of the important factors or what I would consider to be one of the important factors is that it should come from from the top and that both leaders and you know organisations as a whole should start by living with well-being in mind and prioritising their own well-being and which I think then can lead to that enablement of allowing employees to to embrace well-being and to to live their their lives and I suppose fully and as Kara mentioned bringing your whole self to work and like there’s a huge amount that companies can do on a practical level as well and I think it goes back to creating a supportive environment and an environment that allows people to thrive and so that can mean things like promoting flexible working and having supports in place that allow people to disclose mental health difficulties if they if they want to and it can also be I suppose around allowing people to have purpose in their work and to have sight of progression so I suppose looking at that area it might be around ensuring your managers are properly trained to check in with their staff and identify development needs and I think it comes back simply to listening to your employees and that can be on the one-to-one basis or it can be on a wider level so engaging in employee surveys,

Unknown speaker

having forums, having a way to open the conversation because ultimately your employees will tell you what they need and what will have the biggest impact and you know when it comes to well-being. And if someone is an employee struggling with maybe their mental health or their well-being how would you advise them to start that conversation with their employer?

Unknown speaker

What’s the best kind of way for them to go about it? I mean I think like we would certainly just to maybe look at the employer in the first instance we’d encourage employers to have maybe an employee assistance program that would be promoted to their staff and I suppose the idea behind that is perhaps that’s the first port of call for the employee.

Unknown speaker

I’m not sure Cara what you would say on that point. Sure I suppose it can be tricky so I think Deloitte did research recently that said that 61% of people hide something about themselves at work so exactly to your point if they’ve got a mental health issue or a well-being issue that they’re you know thinking about raising it has to feel safe to do so and that’s all about the culture and the organization and as Sophie says you know that employers are open to those kind of conversations and if it doesn’t feel safe or I feel that it’s going to impact my career or my relationship with colleagues well I’m likely to be really reluctant to do so and the problem with that is you know a lot of these things the earlier the intervention happens if it’s something small where it’s as Sophie says it’s just an opportunity to talk and get it out or if it’s something that needs a little bit more support and maybe a bit of professional help here or there the earlier that happens the more successful the outcome because you haven’t been carrying it for as long but that all comes about with whether or not the culture feels safe to do so so it’s really important that we set that up and that we’re open to those conversations what would encourage me as an employee to come forward and have a conversation like that might be a trusted manager or colleague that I feel I can reach out to so I suppose in the mental health space we have seen the introduction of mental health champions in the workplace is really really supportive in this area these are trained colleagues trained in mental health first aid in the same way as you’d be trained in physical first aid um but who are able to to have a conversation you know support somebody in in directing them oftentimes to where the the actual assistance might be for them um with a view to to see supporting them and giving them the confidence and encouragement to go that direction.

Unknown speaker

At the same time, it’s not requiring anybody to diagnose or solve the problem for the individual, but really just to be there as a support for them. Other options, obviously, as I say, could be your manager or a different manager or HR, but it has to feel safe to do that.

Unknown speaker

The employer, oftentimes what we have been hearing from employers is the concern that, okay, but what if they come to me? What am I going to say? How am I going to support them? And as Sophie says, oftentimes, having an employee assistance program or really just being open to the conversation can be the starting point.

Unknown speaker

The traditional and typical conversations that we have day-to-day with our people, even something as open-ended as you don’t seem yourself today, is everything okay? Is there anything we can support with?

Unknown speaker

Can be the opportunity for somebody to… actually unburden themselves and tell them tell you what’s going on or not but at least they know that potentially if they’re ready and when they’re ready there is somebody there who’s willing to to hear them.

Unknown speaker

Great thank you yeah and then in your experience have you seen any long lasting damage that has been done by ignoring wellness? I mean we have definitely come across companies where maybe trust is an issue or employee engagement levels are low.

Unknown speaker

Now I suppose employee engagement is something that can definitely be targeted and well-being like having a cohesive well-being program can contribute to improving those numbers. It’s something that we’ve seen with the Keep Well Mark companies and we asked enrolled organisations what difference had they seen since getting on board and 40% of companies said that employee engagement levels had improved so I suppose that’s kind of backed by statistics.

Unknown speaker

We’ve also worked with companies who have had maybe more tragic outcomes and maybe lost say co-workers to suicide and I mean this is the reality it’s an issue for a lot of businesses and that’s not necessarily a reflection on the company per se but more so on the culture and on stigma.

Unknown speaker

So it’s something that certainly can’t be ignored but thankfully I mean we’ve seen positive changes in terms of the number of businesses that are investing in mental health supports and also the number of disclosures as a result.

Unknown speaker

But yeah I mean look there certainly can be negative long-term effects but I think the movement that’s happening now within the business community is really positive and supports improvement in all areas of well-being.

Unknown speaker

Definitely I mean even in terms of indicators like absenteeism or worse presenteeism you know if the that the well-being culture within the organization isn’t healthy. They are areas that are likely to be impacted and as Sophie says, immediately engagement, you know, people disengage and we’re in the middle of a sort of a war for talent around skills.

Unknown speaker

People will vote with their feet, you know, if it’s not working for them there are opportunities out there to go elsewhere and and that’s the reality for some people because if it’s impacting you on a mental and physical level, you know, possibly one of the outcomes is to look elsewhere and so it does have real implications.

Unknown speaker

Yeah, I think there’s a change kind of in the workforce as well where it’s a generational change. The younger generation coming in care about their wellness and they talk more openly about their mental health and it’s not just a case of get on with it anymore with what would have been the older generation.

Unknown speaker

So how do you think that there’s still maybe for the older generation like? they have to buy into it. How would you battle that? I think change certainly takes time and for businesses that are looking to the future, I think it’s something that they need to be considering.

Unknown speaker

There’s other factors to consider as well, like when you’re looking at the ageing workforce and the fact that people are working for longer than ever than before and that can be for different reasons.

Unknown speaker

Wellbeing is not just about your millennials and your emerging generations, it’s about looking after the whole workforce. I can speak as a millennial, certainly I expect my job to somehow speak to my values and I don’t know why I shouldn’t.

Unknown speaker

Absolutely, I think as a not millennial, there’s five generations in the workplace at the moment and all of those have a very different cultural difference even within the generations. You’re absolutely right, the oldest generation in the workplace at the moment are the stoic, loyal types who rarely had a sick day.

Unknown speaker

This whole area of mental health is a bit challenging but as Sophie says, we have a longer working life, we have people going beyond retirement age as it traditionally was. There are different demands on our wellness and our wellbeing at different stages within our careers, within our lifespan and so on and I think that is what people maybe resonates with people because it’s not just a one-size-fits-all approach,

Unknown speaker

it has to be a little bit more fluid and I think maybe it’s a little bit freeing in a sense for a generation that maybe that wasn’t something they were maybe feeling they had the permission to talk about before.

Unknown speaker

Now, I think it’s a bigger challenge because if it’s not something that you’ve been naturally doing comfortably, it can be a little bit difficult to start. But once you do, and I suppose once you feel that it’s okay to, then that can shift things.

Unknown speaker

Could you talk maybe a little bit about the effects that diversity and inclusion can make on a company? So the positive effects, I guess, of having inclusion programs and being very open and then maybe the negative effects that you might have seen of companies who aren’t very inclusive.

Unknown speaker

Yeah, absolutely. So I suppose there’s probably a big difference between diversity and inclusion in the sense that diversity is what we have in our population anyway. Unless we harness it and really and really work with the diversity and the difference as well as the similarities We’re not going to get that inclusion piece and really the the sweet spot is when we get that inclusion piece We know that research points to huge business case arguments around diversity and inclusion so things from Huge financial indicators from bottom-line performance to earnings per share in companies that harness the diversity of their workforce We know that it meet makes companies More in tune with their customers Because they have a broad diverse base of customers and we’re able to respond better in terms of the product services or solutions that We’re providing for those customers because we’re coming from a diverse base ourselves and similarly creativity and innovation We know is sparked when you’ve got diversity of thinking in the room rather than the same types of people from the same types Of backgrounds in the same ways of thinking about things and in the same sense and higher quality Decisions are made and better solutions to problems come about now It’s not necessarily always as easy It takes a little bit more time when you’ve got diversity and if you’ve got people who are all coming at it from the same Way you’re likely to get through a problem quicker But it may not be the best solution Whereas if you spend a little bit more time if you take that effort around diversity inclusion,

Unknown speaker

you’re likely to see a higher quality Outcome where where it doesn’t work and we see silos within organizations. We see people Experiencing blocks to their progression and to their careers or or feeling quite Disconnected from their their workplace and and how they’re how they’re doing and ultimately, you know in a time of of Opportunity again, people will leave or worse they’ll stay and will you know disrupt and neither of those things is good whereas if we can actually Harness that the value of that talent really the outcomes are extremely positive And I suppose in the in the current situation where we have,

Unknown speaker

you know a real focus on the future of work that ability to be agile and to change and to have different ways of coming at things and different ways of looking at the world and really is a source of competitiveness and and growth so it’s really positive.

Unknown speaker

And how do you think that companies could approach well-being with authenticity so they’re not just doing it for the the benefit the look of it they’re doing it because they actually care. I mean I think probably goes back to what I was saying earlier around listening and talking to your employees and to really assess what their needs are rather than what maybe you perceive to be you know a well-being program and equally you know to be authentic to lead with authenticity it has to come back to you know those people that are driving and I suppose opening up the the approach to well-being beyond maybe the HR team or whoever is tasked with it,

Unknown speaker

per se, and allowing maybe for a wellbeing committee or a forum that really brings more voices to the table when approaching it. I think it has to be bigger than a few initiatives as well. Sometimes we see great activities or interventions being placed into an organisation and it can tick box.

Unknown speaker

We’ve done that. We’re done now. We’ve got our wellbeing sorted. But if the culture doesn’t actually support that initiative in everyday life, the authenticity just isn’t there. I think also where possible role modelling from the top team, from the senior leaders is really, really important because as much as we might hope that having the policy or the practice or the posters or the interventions around the house is really,

Unknown speaker

really good and everybody gets it, unless we actually see people in that leadership role being willing to be flexible or work differently or actually say, you know what, I experienced this and I’ve come out the other side of it or I’m dealing with it or whatever, makes it okay then to actually put your head above the parapet and say, okay, you know, this is something I need to take for myself.

Unknown speaker

Do you think that the workforce is more demanding now than it was 10 or 20 years ago or do you think it’s maybe less demanding? I think it’s different. I think every generation has a different experience with it.

Unknown speaker

I don’t know that it’s necessarily more demanding. I think we have the positive and negative elements of technology which certainly make life easier in many ways, but also mean that we struggle with being always on and requires a certain discipline to be able to switch off, but also requires both an understanding on the individual and the organisation.

Unknown speaker

organizations, part of the value of that, of how productivity is not just how many hours you can sit in the seat, you know, in the desk at the computer screen, but as much time as you’re spending, innovating, creating, thinking, talking to other people, collaborating, bouncing ideas, you know, and so on.

Unknown speaker

So I think it’s a double-edged sword and one that we have to manage, but really offers such opportunities in terms of when and where we work and how we work. So while I’d say there are different demands, I don’t know that they’re necessarily more.

Unknown speaker

I mean, I think life and work are always going to be demanding. And going back to what we spoke about earlier, about how there’s not necessarily one size fits all. I think we’re more open now to flexibility, which is really positive.

Unknown speaker

But as Kara said, there’s a lot of noise in our lives, and whether that’s technology or… Stress, you know, we’re we’re living in a I mean Dublin is a very busy city and a lot of people are commuting day-in day-out So, I mean I can’t speak to the workplace 20 years ago necessarily, but I Think you know, it’s there are challenges and Now I’m sure there were different challenges 20 years ago and but I suppose it’s about how we’re how we’re approaching Our lives and seeking out balance and then on the the employers side of things how we’re supporting and people to have balance So things like flexible and remote working and you know Allowing people to maybe leave an hour earlier if that means they spend an hour less getting home and at the end of the day In your opinion,

Unknown speaker

what are small efforts a company can do with minimum efforts that could make maximum effect? Yeah, I mean, I suppose there’s lots of resources out there and when it comes to looking at well-being and The Department of Health have published lots of material and under the Healthy Ireland brand and I Suppose looking at the work environment is a good place to start as well And so kind of going back to the the traditional,

Unknown speaker

you know nutrition and physical activity that aspect of well-being and there’s lots Early take a huge amount of effort, but that can have a real impact on people So things like healthy choices being available and that could be your canteen if you serve food Just ensuring that there are options for people It could be taking a look at your vending machines and maybe changing up what’s in there to allow for more healthy choices for people It could be promoting physical activity and allowing people to maybe get to and from work and so Do you have bike sheds?

Unknown speaker

Do you have showers? You know, are you facilitating people to make the healthier choice and I mean certain if those changes need to be made. I mean there will be a little bit of investment but it’s not a huge project but it might make a difference to a number of employees.

Unknown speaker

Some businesses also adopt kind of simple incentives to encourage people to be healthy so even offering an extra 10 or 15 minutes at lunchtime for people who maybe have gone for a walk or a run or anything like that and then I mean I would recommend most organizations and if they have the resources to look at maybe an employee assistance program and because I suppose that offers another level of support and particularly if your your resources are tight in terms of your HR personnel or whatever it might be and you know even if that has an impact on one person and that could really change their lives so it’s definitely you know maybe a small change that could have a real long-term impact.

Unknown speaker

I think it’s important as well to kind of draw on the bodies that are out there in this space. You know, as Sophie says, Keep Well is there, but we also have a lot of partners in this space who you know, are willing to work with employers on different levels.

Unknown speaker

If we take the example, for example, of sea change on the mental health side, they provide training free of charge for organisations. They support the Green Ribbon Campaign for Mental Health each year, where they provide those to employers against small efforts, but that raise awareness and start conversations around mental health, let’s say.

Unknown speaker

I think also role modelling, which once the culture has decided it’s going down a well-being route within the organisation, having that in place costs nothing, but means so much to people within the organisation.

Unknown speaker

I suppose when an employer is dealing with anything in this space, particularly let’s say around mental health, they have to remember that the colleagues and friends of that individual who may be at that given time is going through a situation are watching.

Unknown speaker

And so many of them are thinking that could be me, you know, or that could be my sister, brother, friend, and how the employer treats it can have a huge impact on even engagement and loyalty to the company because the trust has to be there that you’ve cared for my colleague in a way that is human and in a way that, you know, is the way we would all like to be treated.

Unknown speaker

So I think there are lots of small moves we can make to this bigger well-being agenda. Thank you for listening to another episode of Zevo Talks. We would like to thank Sophie and Cara for joining us today.

Unknown speaker

Both have been huge players in the change that has been seen in the Irish workforce in recent years. We have seen lots of changes that have and are happening within the workforce, but of course there’s still room for more to be done.

Unknown speaker

Thanks for listening and tune in next time.