The importance of adapting the workplace to a changing world with Siobhan O’Shea

Unknown speaker

Welcome back to Zevotalks. Today we are joined by Siobhan O’Shea. Siobhan is known for her work in CPL’s Future of Work Institute which examines workplace trends and diversity and inclusion. Siobhan is also a member of the board of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce and chairs the Labour Task Force.

Unknown speaker

Thank you very much for joining us today Siobhan. Thanks for having me. So firstly could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Perfect. So as you mentioned I’m Client Services Director with CPL and I worked actually in the recruitment and talent solutions world for over 18 years now and I suppose would have started out myself as a recruiter and grew my way into kind of operational director roles and then moving very much onto the client servicing and sales side in recent years and prior to that I would have spent a number of years in the States I actually worked in New York for several years and kind of started out in financial services working in Wall Street and then moved into television so I’ve had a few kind of pivots in my own career over the years but very much you know enjoy what I do now in terms of helping I suppose customers find the best solutions when it comes to talent for their teams.

Unknown speaker

Yeah and what was it like working on Wall Street? Incredible experience and I was so lucky at the time I emigrated from Ireland things would have been incredibly tough here economically and you know the Irish getting a phenomenal reception in the States were very well regarded and welcomed and that would have been very much the experience I had when I moved there and spent seven years there and you know in terms of it it really is the land of opportunity and I always felt that people were really supportive and egging you on and had some fabulous mentors and role models there that to this date I’m still in touch with so it was a really fantastic experience.

Unknown speaker

Great and so your role in CPL has evolved quite a lot and did you always want to work in the area of even recruitment or talent solutions as you said or what kind of led you in that direction? So interestingly like a lot of people who end up working in recruitment I would have fallen into it, it would have been kind of at a point when I had returned from the States and was looking for my next move and I suppose you know somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said listen what about this you know you’re a people person you enjoy and you know relationship building I think this might suit you and it kind of went from there and then a more recent year so when I joined CPL our CEO Anne Hurty had approach me to join and I really felt it was a great time to be joining CPL because it’s so entrepreneurial it’s so ambitious in its goals and that’s proved to be the case even in terms of our growth journey and over its 30 year record and phenomenal growth in the last kind of decade as well and going global you know continuing to take a footprint in so many countries overseas we’ve got over 47 offices so it’s a great culture to be a part of when you get an opportunity I suppose to really add value and bring your ideas to bear and you know it’s a very kind of innovative culture as well where we’re all encouraged to kind of constantly be thinking you know about the future of work and about the opportunities that we can you know support our customers on and equally our own people.

Unknown speaker

So the term diverse workforce relates to many areas gender, religion, disability, age, sexuality and so on and to you what does a diverse modern workforce look like and what does it mean? Yeah I’d certainly agree it’s all of that and more I think what’s great to see when it turns you know when you look at diversity now is that while diversity is a fact you know it’s really taking us moving it along and shifting the dial along to that inclusivity piece so you know I suppose that ensuring that all of that great diversity that we have in our workplace is being heard and that the voices are being you know accepted and recognised and that you feel that you’re a part of you know an organisation that you can add value in a meaningful way and I think what’s great to see is how much focus and attention there is now on ensuring that our working you know our working places are as inclusive and diverse as possible and that’s a big shift in a very short period from you know the workplace that I would have come into you know even 20 years ago where it was quite homogenous and you know there would have been very little kind of of that breadth of kind of diversity that we even have in Irish society now so it’s great to see it and it is constantly evolving and I think that’s the nature of diversity and you know in terms of I would have said that you know when I went to school I went to a school with all Irish people and now my son goes to and he’s in his school there’s over 34 cultures so of course that has a knock-on impact into you know the future of the workplace in Ireland and rightly so.

Unknown speaker

And there are so many companies that celebrate certain days of the year however how does a company in your opinion promote diversity and inclusion on a day-to-day basis? Yeah, so there’s a lot of different ways, I think, that people can really look at this.

Unknown speaker

And I think, first of all, it’s stepping back and really considering, well, what is your diversity and understanding it? We in CPL actually went through this process ourselves in recent years. And, you know, we learned a lot through going through kind of a diagnostic process of kind of surveying our people and understanding, I suppose, what is the makeup of our own, you know, people and our workforce in order to be able to come up with the right kind of activities that are aligned to their preferences and their needs.

Unknown speaker

Because I think, you know, companies can be guilty of kind of ticking boxes in order to feel that they’re, you know, aligned to a DNI strategy. But really, when you scratch beneath the surface, there’s maybe very little substance or connectivity on it to your employees.

Unknown speaker

So I think knowing what is important and what matters to your people. So in some companies, for example, gender balance can be a big priority. Others at the minute, and one that’s rising a lot actually is, you know, the focus on making sure that people who are marginalized, you know, are more included in workplace makeup.

Unknown speaker

So for example, you know, even we do a lot of work with an initiative called Open Doors Initiative where really they look at people in three different cohorts, people with disabilities, people who are long term youth and unemployed and migrants and making sure all those cohorts have an opportunity to do meaningful work and to gain and have gainful employment.

Unknown speaker

So I think, you know what, I think there’s lots of things that companies can do, but I think it’s making sure, first of all, that you’re clear on the purpose and that it really is authentic. It’s coming from a place of authenticity because otherwise people will, you know, won’t believe in it and that you pick a few areas that are of most importance and aligned to what will resonate with your own people.

Unknown speaker

And you know, in CPL, it turned out that we had six pillars that we ended up landing on, that were of most relevance to our own people, which included things like gender carers, working parents, generations, et cetera.

Unknown speaker

So we found that that’s made it easy for us then to align programmes of activities against those pillars. Great. The future of the Irish workforce is changing. How we work has changed completely in recent years.

Unknown speaker

Do you think there are little moves organisations can make to future-proof itself? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, without a question, we’re in the fourth industrial revolution. Change has never happened so fast.

Unknown speaker

So I think organisations need to be really acutely aware of the importance of continuously evolving, how they treat their people, how they attract talent, how they retain talent in order to be competitive as possible.

Unknown speaker

And I think there’s a lot that companies can do to embrace the trends. And some of the… you know, the current trends that are certainly high on, you know, the radar, I suppose in corporate life at the minute are this whole move towards flexible and smart working and being able to really align yourself with, you know, the importance that that’s going to have in the future of work, because I suppose we’re all realizing now that you don’t have to just be at a desk to be productive and to be working,

Unknown speaker

that you can be actually working anywhere as long as you have Wi-Fi. So, you know, and we are seeing that people are, you know, really challenging organizations, I suppose, to offer new ways of working for lots of reasons.

Unknown speaker

It could be to do with, you know, to reduce commuting time to, you know, which actually leads to increase in productivity, to just meeting needs of the younger generations who want to work in different ways and more flexible ways.

Unknown speaker

So that would be one thing. I would definitely see a shift towards, you know, creating programs for embracing lifelong learning because the pace of change is happening so fast that the 10-year-old of today is most definitely going to work on a job that doesn’t exist yet.

Unknown speaker

So all of us, no matter what generation we come from, need to be continuously honing our skills and, you know, being ready to adapt to this pace of change and transformation that’s happening in the workplace of the future.

Unknown speaker

And I think in Ireland, historically, we would have had a low enough lifelong learning rate, but I think it’s improving dramatically because there is such a priority and a focus on supporting companies, I suppose, and their activities around this.

Unknown speaker

You know, I think there’s lots of little ways, then, that companies can embrace D&I and embrace, I suppose, new ways of working. And it’s everything from really, you know, creating more collaborative working cultures, mixing up your teams, making sure that you’re acknowledging people from all cultures, offering training, offering, you know, interventions, talks, all of these types.

Unknown speaker

of things that, you know, really matter and resonate to people. And I think, you know, when you look at particularly the Millennial Generation and Z Generation, they put a huge priority on, you know, working for companies that offer programs like good wellbeing programs, good, you know, training and development programs.

Unknown speaker

So if you want to be able to differentiate yourself as an employer to be able to get that talent in in the first place, well, then it’s incumbent on you to actually step back and have a very holistic program in place.

Unknown speaker

And we see that through the future work actually institute, we support a lot of companies around this employer proposition, we’re providing services on it, such as the demand now to be able to kind of create those differentiators.

Unknown speaker

It’s definitely something that’s come up in past discussions, how the next generation, the generation before that, again, our so aware of their wellness and their well-being but that’s what they expect now from their employers.

Unknown speaker

So it’s almost, I feel like it’s going to be nearly a new health and safety thing will be health and safety policies and then there’ll be wellness and well-being policies as time goes on because it’s something that they’re very aware of and like self-care it’s also important so it’s definitely something that has come up in past discussions.

Unknown speaker

Yeah and it’s great, it’s great to see it because you know when you look at the stress levels that are prevalent you know in working organizations it’s you know we have to do something about it so I think it’s looking at that full kind of holistic you know overview of all the different elements of well-being to make sure that you’re you know protecting your people’s overall mental and physical well-being you know and all the other dimensions of well-being as well.

Unknown speaker

So an area that you look at a lot is women in the workforce and the gender pay gap. Employment in Ireland is currently at a good place so do you think that the gender pay gap is something that may broaden or narrow as the Irish economy develops?

Unknown speaker

Look I would absolutely love to say that I think it will narrow and I really hope it will and I think particularly with the implementation of the new gender pay gap information bill which is expected actually to be signed into law this year and it should really help and that legislation is particularly focused on companies with over 250 employees but we still are you know there’s still a gap of it’s deteriorated actually in the last few years of 16 between you know male and female pay so I think when you look at that on an aggregate and you know of course we would all want that there’s no gap you know in as quick as a period of time but it is going to take probably a lot longer than any of us would like because of the systemic reasons for it and I suppose there’s many different factors that contribute to it from the cost of child care,

Unknown speaker

which means that we don’t have as, you know, strong and active supports and infrastructures as maybe countries like in the Scandinavia area to help our families to be able to say, okay, you know, the mothers or fathers out there can, you know, make decisions on how they work so that there’s better equality.

Unknown speaker

What you tend to see is that, you know, what’s typically happened is that the woman is opting into those caring roles and it means that as a result our workforce participation rate is a lot lower than a lot of European countries.

Unknown speaker

So, you know, it’s going to require a lot of will and new initiatives I think in order to really put meaningful progress on it because at the moment it’s incredibly glacial to see dramatic changes when it comes to things like gender pay gap and even when you look at the pipeline of talent coming into senior management and leadership roles it’s still and you know it’s not at the level it would be in order to kind of bridge that gap anytime near and even if you look at our board statistics in Ireland are still shocking you know in terms of the the gender balance is completely out of kilter and then the balance is you know it’s as it stands right now it’s about 26 female to male ratio and so you know those are all contributing factors that lead into this you know gap that we see but I think there’s a lot that organizations can do themselves in even looking how they mentor and sponsor their female talent to be able to encourage them to take on those opportunities that are further up in the food chain to break down those glass ceilings and to you know with a wider funnel of looking at diversity as well you know it’s we know all the research shows that having better gender balance throughout an organization actually leads to higher growth and returns so you know there’s there’s huge commercial and business benefit to doing this as well I read in November that um because of the the gender pay gap women were effectively not earning until January 1st and I was just shocked yeah essentially working for free because of the pay gap yeah and it kind of really opened my eyes because I you forget that these things are continuously going on and you hear about it at one point and you’re shocked and then you forget about it and then it happens again and it’s kind of it until it’s if it’s not in your face sometimes I think that we can forget that it’s always happening and it still exists and because in Ireland I feel like we think that we’re keeping up I guess with European and people who are like Scandinavia I guess would be the greatest example and we just assume kind of that these things are happening but they’re not so yeah no and it’s interesting because we produced actually a piece of research through the future work Institute and on the gender gap and you know we really could see there’s so many different factors at play that are to do with and you know even from a young age you know our biases that are ingrained in us that are maybe leading to things like a lack of female talent coming into STEM careers you know and that starts quite young you know so you know we’re not having the right subject courses available and secondary schools and things like that so there’s systemic reasons that can sometimes contribute to this you know the rationale behind the gender pay gap and but you know even in terms of the the white paper,

Unknown speaker

there is a lot that companies can do. And I think what is important is that they are actually having a strategy on us to make sure that they’re doing everything they possibly can do, I suppose, to switch up the dial.

Unknown speaker

What’s great to see is we’re seeing a lot of our customers are approaching us actually on DNI and to see how they can partner with us to help support them, I suppose, in making a difference. And I think I find that really heartening, that companies really care and they want to make a difference.

Unknown speaker

So now on to a more personal note. You have an established career and you’re also a mother. So how do you find that work-life balance? So yeah, I’d probably more describe it as a work-life blend for me than balance.

Unknown speaker

I do struggle with the balance thing. I think I’m like most people. And I think given with this digital era that we’re in, it’s very, very hard to kind of completely switch off, I suppose, when you constantly have access to technology that keeps you connected to your work.

Unknown speaker

And I suppose particularly when you’re really interested in your work and you love your work, it makes it hard to switch off as well. But as you said, I am a mum of two children. I have a 13-year-old and a 10-year-old.

Unknown speaker

So it’s really important to me that they know that they are my number one priority. So I do prioritise things like us having a family dinner together every day and creating experiences and memories for them that they will take into their own adult lives.

Unknown speaker

So we do a lot of great trips together. And on the weekends, we do good, there’s really good quality time together doing whatever. It could be going to the park or going to the cinema. And I think those things are really important to me that they feel that when I am with them, that I am engaged, that I’m not one eye on the phone looking at a work email and that they know that I’m present with them.

Unknown speaker

And that’s something I’m very conscious of because I’ve seen it time and time again, how people tend to… are living to work instead of working to live, you know? So, and I think that’s really important and there’s a really clear distinction there because ultimately when you’re on your deathbed, what are you going to remember?

Unknown speaker

You know, is it how many hours you put into your work or is it, you know, the memories you created with the people you love? So I suppose that’s, you know, that’s really how I try and navigate it. Yeah, I definitely think it’s important to have a kind of switch off when you leave work that even if you see an email come in, you just don’t look at it because then you’re starting this habit of constantly checking emails after work or outside work hours.

Unknown speaker

And I think that if you’re not in kind of brain surgery, it’s not that urgent and it can wait. I don’t think, I think family time and time of friends and your own time as well is extremely important when you’re finished work for the day.

Unknown speaker

And that also has to be seen as work in a way. It’s kind of like your work on yourself. Yeah, I think that’s a great way of putting it, because ultimately you need to recharge and be re-energised for the next day.

Unknown speaker

So I think it’s a challenge, it is hard, and I think it takes a lot of discipline. And I do struggle with that discipline. I am having sneaky looks sometimes at my emails, so I have to kind of be very strict with myself and kind of putting the phone down, putting it away, putting it out of sight.

Unknown speaker

And actually having that rigor with my kids as well too, because equally you can all end up then in this orbit of technology. Wherever you’re watching a TV show, but no one’s watching it, they’re just watching their phones.

Unknown speaker

Yes, yeah, exactly. Been there too many times. So something then we ask all our guests is, how do you practise your own wellbeing? Yeah, so in terms of, for me anyway, there’s a couple of ways I practise my own wellbeing.

Unknown speaker

So I love walking, so my Fitbit friends will love this, but I wear a Fitbit and I have kind of a daily goal that I do a minimum 10,000 steps a day. And that’s worked really well for me actually in the last few years.

Unknown speaker

At times when I might be tempted to lie on the sofa and I’ve only hit way less than my 10,000 steps, it might motivate me to get out and go for a walk. So that’s one way I actually find that incredibly cathartic and decompressing, because it kind of switches off your, you know, it eliminates that kind of stress of the day and you kind of wash that off.

Unknown speaker

You know, I love spending time on my hobbies and the things I’m passionate about. So everything from painting to travelling. I love travelling and adventure to spending time with my family and friends, going for a lovely meal.

Unknown speaker

So it’s really that flow activity as well. Things like, I love, I’m an avid reader. So anything that kind of switches me off that I can’t be multitasking or doing two things at the one time. So the things like cooking, reading, all those kind of activities help me really switch off and kind of reboot and…

Unknown speaker

and I do try and give them priority because I do notice the difference when I’ve spent times on those things and they kind of give you a feel good factor. And would you say like, would say cooking for an example, I know sometimes cooking can be a task, but I would also really enjoy cooking.

Unknown speaker

And I feel like there’s a difference between when you know I’m cooking for my wellbeing or I’m cooking as it’s a task and it’s a necessity, do you find there’s any difference with some of the things that you would do that could be tasks or if you know it’s your wellbeing, you’re doing this for some wellness.

Unknown speaker

Yeah, so I would definitely say the cooking that you do on the weekends where you have more time and you can be more, you know. spend more energy on the type of recipe that you create and would be something that I would definitely, whereas during the week it’s quite maybe a little bit more functional but I find that just the process of maybe cutting the vegetables and getting the prep done and you know the whole system is a real demarcation between your working day and now your evening,

Unknown speaker

your personal time and so you know for me I think it’s all good because it’s all kind of you know stuff I enjoy and but definitely I would say that the baking or that on the weekends is a more zen process than the midweek cooking.

Unknown speaker

Great and thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to another episode of Ziva Talks. We would like to thank Siobhan for joining us today. Siobhan has clearly made great strides to invest in Ireland’s future of the workplace.

Unknown speaker

Her work has made the Irish workforce more future-proof and has developed the quality of well-being. Tune in next time to listen to more influential people making positive changes in Ireland. Thanks for watching!